Church Carry: Yes or No?

[Budge]

When I took my CHL class early this year, my instructor told us that churches, synagogues, and places of religious worship were "gray areas" where we needed to use our judgement. Even though the handbook we were using (from August 2008) listed these places as non-carry, we were instructed to put astericks by PC 46.035 subsections 4, 5, and 6 because the laws were being changed (supposedly).

But I have now looked in the 2009 release of the handbook, and PC 46.035 subsection 6 reads the same as it did before, regarding churches.

So is there something I'm missing? Is it legal to carry concealed with a CHL to church?

[ELB]

It is really not a "gray" area -- concealed carry is legal unless the church is posted with the statutory signage or the powers-that-be tell you you can't carry there. There are several locations types that fall in this category. The language supporting this has been in force for some time (two or three legislatures ago) -- I don't have it at my finger tips but in the statute, keep reading on down the text aways and you will find that certain locations must post proper signage in order to legally prevent CHL carry.

Also, just search these forums for "church carry" and you should find numerous threads on this. There are a couple or three pastors here on this forum as well.

[Mithras61]

When I took my CHL class early this year, my instructor told us that churches, synagogues, and places of religious worship were "gray areas" where we needed to use our judgement. Even though the handbook we were using (from August 2008) listed these places as non-carry, we were instructed to put astericks by PC 46.035 subsections 4, 5, and 6 because the laws were being changed (supposedly).

But I have now looked in the 2009 release of the handbook, and PC 46.035 subsection 6 reads the same as it did before, regarding churches.

So is there something I'm missing? Is it legal to carry concealed with a CHL to church?

Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
(1) [amended 9/1/97] on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;
(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate;
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.
(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, at any meeting of a governmental entity.
(d) A license holder commits an offense if, while intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed.
(e) A license holder who is licensed as a security officer under the Private Investigators and Private Security Agencies Act (Article 4413(29bb), Vernon's Texas Civil Statutes) and employed as a security officer commits an offense if, while in the course and scope of the security officer's employment, the security officer violates a provision of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(f) In this section:
(1) "Amusement park" means a permanent indoor or outdoor facility or park where amusement rides are available for use by the public that is located in a county with a population of more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface area, is enclosed with access only through controlled entries, is open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has security guards on the premises at all times. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
(2) "License holder" means a person licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
(g) An offense under Subsection (a), (b), (c), (d), or (e) is a Class A misdemeanor, unless the offense is committed under Subsection (b)(1) or (b)(3), in which event the offense is a felony of the third degree.
(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9.
(i) [added 9/1/97] Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

I believe the item you're missing is (i) which modifies (b)(6) and was added 12 years ago...

[ELB]

My answer above is correct but not as precise as I usually like. Here is the exact language from the statute:

Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.

....(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:

........(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate;

........(5) in an amusement park; or

........(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

....(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, at any meeting of a governmental entity.

........(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

This is not new -- this has been the law for quite a while, and your instructor should have known that, assuming you understood him and correctly relayed what he said.

[Greybeard]

Churches, along with 3 other locations, were removed from "prohibited" list in 1997 actually. Unless providing notice in accordance with 30.06. I forget the exact page, but the amendment to 46.035 is on of the right hand page of the law booklet just below a double line. Starts out with "Subsections ..... do not apply ....

[Budge]

Thank you. Actually, my instructor gave us a list of "gray areas". I should post them here and find out if he was right (I'm guessing he wasn't).

[LostInAustin]

...my instructor gave us a list of "gray areas". I should post them here and find out if he was right.

Please do so we can all get a look at it.

[joe817]

Thank you. Actually, my instructor gave us a list of "gray areas". I should post them here and find out if he was right (I'm guessing he wasn't).

You really should Bridge. This might be a learning experience for a lot of people.

[Kevinf2349]

Does your church meet in a school premises?

(btw I carry to my church everytime I go there....sometimes more guns than I should! )

[boomerang]

Let me guess. The instructor also said it's illegal to let a drop of alcohol pass your lips while carrying.

[Budge]

OK...here's the list of "Never Carry Sites" and "You Can Decide Sites" as written on the blackboard of my CHL class. In case it matters, this was before the '09 changes were published.

Never Carry:
Bars - 51% and consumed
Federal - post office, etc.
Schools - events, transportation, bldgs.
Jails
Courts
Airports
Racetracks - Horse and dog
Professional Sporting Events
Anywhere while intoxicated
1000' Near an execution
Anywhere a 30.06 is posted

You Can Decide:
Churches/Temples
Hospitals
Nursing Homes
Amusement Parks
Government Entity Meetings
Lower Colorado River Authority
State Parks and Monuments
Local Public Transportation
Most Federal Parks
Privately Owned Banks

[surprise_i'm_armed]

My understanding regarding airports is that you can carry there, but
not inside the security perimeter through which travelers must pass.

SIA

[Budge]

My understanding regarding airports is that you can carry there, but
not inside the security perimeter through which travelers must pass.

Yes, that was my understanding, too. However, we were informed that if you have a LEO encounter anywhere on airport property, you can pretty much expect to have your CHL rights violated (and possibly other rights too). I'd be REALLY CAREFUL at the airport.

[Carrots]

IIRC all of the following need either a 30.06 sign or verbal notice to prevent you from carrying:

Churches/Temples
Hospitals
Nursing Homes
Local Public Transportation
Privately Owned Banks

These are the ones that stick out to me, there may be others on your list that are also OK.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

Carrots:

"Privately owned banks" as opposed to "US Government owned banks"?

This sounds like rocket science to determine which is which.

SIA