WHEW! Weird experience on Saturday at HEB

[Sangiovese]

Regarding theft vs robbery...

Your mileage may vary, but a very smart guy explained the difference to me this way:

Taking something from another person who is present is generally considered robbery. Even if force was not actually used, there is a very real implied threat of force. (i.e. if you were not afraid, you would not let them take your stuff)

Theft would only apply when the owner is not present.

It is a framework that works for me.

[ELB]

Regarding theft vs robbery...

Your mileage may vary, but a very smart guy explained the difference to me this way:
etc....

sounds good, but I don't think it is legally correct, at least in Texas. The law is quoted a few posts back. Reading what is there, essentially, theft is unlawfully taking someone else's property. The victim may or may not be present. Robbery is theft, with the addition of committing or threatening bodily harm or death. If I simply take your wallet or purse and walk off, I am committing theft. If I threaten to beat the stuffings out of you if you don't hand it over, or I club you over the head and take your wallet, I am robbing you.

Or so I read it.

[boomerang]

I think shoplifting a candy bar is generally considered theft even if the storekeeper is present.

[Sangiovese]

Regarding theft vs robbery...

Your mileage may vary, but a very smart guy explained the difference to me this way:
etc....

sounds good, but I don't think it is legally correct, at least in Texas. The law is quoted a few posts back. Reading what is there, essentially, theft is unlawfully taking someone else's property. The victim may or may not be present. Robbery is theft, with the addition of committing or threatening bodily harm or death. If I simply take your wallet or purse and walk off, I am committing theft. If I threaten to beat the stuffings out of you if you don't hand it over, or I club you over the head and take your wallet, I am robbing you.

Or so I read it.

Sec. 29.02. ROBBERY. (a) A person commits an offense if, in the course of committing theft as defined in Chapter 31 and with intent to obtain or maintain control of the property, he:
(1) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causes bodily injury to another; or
(2) intentionally or knowingly threatens or places another in fear of imminent bodily injury or death.
(b) An offense under this section is a felony of the second degree.
Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

The way I read it... you wouldn't let him take your wallet unless you were afraid he would hurt you if you tried to stop him. Therefore he has "placed you in fear of imminent bodily injury."

[Sangiovese]

I think shoplifting a candy bar is generally considered theft even if the storekeeper is present.

You're right. I was careless in my wording. I should have said, "aware" vs "present."

Shoplifting is attempting to take something without being spotted. If is not using intimidation to take the item.


Take a bank robbery for example. Guy walks in, hands the teller a note saying "fill the bag up with money." He never spoke a word. There is no threat written in the note. Did he commit robbery or theft?

[pbwalker]

[quote="pbwalker

Hey Doug - If you don't mind me asking, which HEB was this? NW / NE side of town? The HEB near me seems to be getting shadier and shadier each day and it wouldn't surprise me if this was my local HEB.

I'm glad it all worked out for you and to be honest, your response sounds like something I would say (I got a good chuckle out of it). You didn't have to draw and no one got hurt. That's a good outcome in my eyes...

Culebra and Tezel on NW Side.[/quote]

Wow...right down the road from me. I normally shop at the one on Guilbeau Rd.

Well, I'm glad your safe!

[srothstein]

I think shoplifting a candy bar is generally considered theft even if the storekeeper is present.

You're right. I was careless in my wording. I should have said, "aware" vs "present."

Shoplifting is attempting to take something without being spotted. If is not using intimidation to take the item.


Take a bank robbery for example. Guy walks in, hands the teller a note saying "fill the bag up with money." He never spoke a word. There is no threat written in the note. Did he commit robbery or theft?

He committed theft in Texas and bank robbery under federal laws. This shows how hard it is to interpret the various laws sometimes. But, there is an easy way to show that Texas sees it a little differently than you do. Under 31.03, the penalty for theft is automatically upgraded to a state jail felony if the item is stolen from a person or corpse.

As shown in the other quote, robbery requires force or a threat against a person, or fear. Case law has accepted that an injured person is the result of force by definition (and I had one case where we got an aggravated robbery conviction for a shoplifter knocking the manager down and breaking her wrist when he bumped her as he ran from the store).

This is why one of my pet peeves is when reporters (or others) say a house was robbed. It was burglarized, not robbed. The owner might have been robbed, but the house could not be.

EDIT: Incidentally, if you want an interesting court case (NO, I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS) think of the person who gives a bank teller a note that reads "I would appreciate you giving me $10,000 in twenties, please." This is a request, not a demand. If the person complies, was a theft committed? By who? The person with the note has permission from the bank teller. The bank teller is obeying a policy to always comply with robbers. But theft is taking property without the effective consent of the owners and I don't think the person with the note has the consent of the bank owners.

[dac1842]

First, the original poster did not violate any laws. There is not an LEO in the county that would have arrested him on that issue.

This reminds me of an incident I was involved in many years ago. At the time I was an LEO. I was off duty with my first wife, her family had come in town to see our newborn son (now 22) and we had gone out to the Spaghetti Warehouse downtown to eat. As we exited a homeless person approached and asked for money, I told him I was sorry but we really could not help him. Well he persisted and after 4 or 5 exchanges I finally told him to back off, leave us alone. Well he was across the car from me standing within a few feet of my sister in law who was holding my son. From where I was it appeared he was reaching for my son, I quickly drew down on him and told him there was nothing here worth dying for, but everything here was worth killing him for. He decided he had lost his appetite and went away.

[stevie_d_64]

First, the original poster did not violate any laws. There is not an LEO in the county that would have arrested him on that issue.

This reminds me of an incident I was involved in many years ago. At the time I was an LEO. I was off duty with my first wife, her family had come in town to see our newborn son (now 22) and we had gone out to the Spaghetti Warehouse downtown to eat. As we exited a homeless person approached and asked for money, I told him I was sorry but we really could not help him. Well he persisted and after 4 or 5 exchanges I finally told him to back off, leave us alone. Well he was across the car from me standing within a few feet of my sister in law who was holding my son. From where I was it appeared he was reaching for my son, I quickly drew down on him and told him there was nothing here worth dying for, but everything here was worth killing him for. He decided he had lost his appetite and went away.

I remember when you originally brought that incident up...

The only thing I can say about all of this regarding aggressive people like this, is that it is not our duty to determine anything about their "story" or condition in life...If they are presenting a situation that makes you feel uncomfortable, then yes, you do have some liberty to address that person effectively enough without levying a threat of deadly force to get them to stop...

It takes an awful lot of skill and patience to deal with people like this, and I might very well have a problem in keeping the situation civil...But is it our duty to keep it civil??? I could go either way on that...

But I can guarantee you this...We all have the ability to deal with a situation like this very decisively...

How you do it where everyone walks away breathing is the real test of your own character...

[shootthesheet]

I weigh words by what would happen if a LEO was called. It seems the O.P. had a gun and threatened to shoot the man in the face for begging. Our responsibility is to deescalate the situation and not escalate it which the O.P. did and very unnecessarily. I am not flaming the O.P. or anyone else but those words alone could have the O.P. slammed by the law. I don't like Bums either but they have the right to life and we do not have a right to take that away because they are leaches on society. Lack of social value as a reason for persecution or murder is the same reasoning that has caused genocide in other countries where the people have no rights or justice. No flames or acquisitions here. I just cannot justify those words no matter how hard I try.

[RHenriksen]

I think you're mischaracterizing the panhandler's behavior by using the word 'begging'. Grabbing the OP's cart and saying that he was not going to return it without payment is *not* 'begging'.

I weigh words by what would happen if a LEO was called. It seems the O.P. had a gun and threatened to shoot the man in the face for begging. Our responsibility is to deescalate the situation and not escalate it which the O.P. did and very unnecessarily. I am not flaming the O.P. or anyone else but those words alone could have the O.P. slammed by the law. I don't like Bums either but they have the right to life and we do not have a right to take that away because they are leaches on society. Lack of social value as a reason for persecution or murder is the same reasoning that has caused genocide in other countries where the people have no rights or justice. No flames or acquisitions here. I just cannot justify those words no matter how hard I try.

[Sangiovese]

But, there is an easy way to show that Texas sees it a little differently than you do. Under 31.03, the penalty for theft is automatically upgraded to a state jail felony if the item is stolen from a person or corpse.

I guess that pretty much shows that my simplistic little framework is wrong. I'm not too big to admit a mistake

I still think that the fear element in the robbery definition is important to CHL holders. Just because someone doesn't harm you or make an explicit threat while taking your possessions, their actions and demeanor can cause a reasonable person to fear injury. In that case, I believe we would be dealing with a robbery. And robbery is one of the offenses that justifies deadly force.

At any rate, I didn't mean to hijack the thread. I just think it's an interesting conversation and I believe that it pertains to the original post as to what actions would be justified in the situation described. Personally, I think the situation was handled well. Laser Tex took action which prevented him from becoming a victim and allowed everyone to walk away from the incident unharmed. That's a good outcome.

[LaserTex]

I was describing the man to paint a thorough picture while asking for advice. It had nothing to do with his social value. It had to do with an older man grabbing my cart and pulling it about 4 feet away from me (I had to take a large step to grab the front of the cart.)

Further update - I did contact the Manager of the HEB on Monday. He called the police to take a report. I retold the story and was told by the SAPD officer that "it would be a cold day in "a warm place" before an officer would have arrested me." HEB Manager also swore out a tresspass order to keep the guy off HEB property.
I was called on Tuesday afternoon by the manager to say that the man had come back to the HEB store, police were called and he was arrested and taken by the police in handcuffs.

Thank you to everyone for helping me wrap my head around this. I am still new (since January 2009) to carrying but in all honesty, I probably would have said the same thing even if I wasn't CHL. The whole incident, from start to finish lasted about 10 seconds. That resulted in an hour and a half writing my statement and being interviewed by the officers. Now I get to wait to be called to testify if this goes to trial. Hopefully it won't.

Thanks again all.

Doug

I weigh words by what would happen if a LEO was called. It seems the O.P. had a gun and threatened to shoot the man in the face for begging. Our responsibility is to deescalate the situation and not escalate it which the O.P. did and very unnecessarily. I am not flaming the O.P. or anyone else but those words alone could have the O.P. slammed by the law. I don't like Bums either but they have the right to life and we do not have a right to take that away because they are leaches on society. Lack of social value as a reason for persecution or murder is the same reasoning that has caused genocide in other countries where the people have no rights or justice. No flames or acquisitions here. I just cannot justify those words no matter how hard I try.

[ELB]

I think you're mischaracterizing the panhandler's behavior by using the word 'begging'. Grabbing the OP's cart and saying that he was not going to return it without payment is *not* 'begging'.

Bingo. LaserTex did alright. The other man was not begging, he was threatening. I wouldn't have used the exact same words, but I would not have been shaken down (or worse) either. Good show dealing with the original incident, and the followup.

[RHenriksen]

Outstanding! Glad you invested the time to help HEB & the other patrons from having to deal with this guy again. (Until he's released.... )

I was describing the man to paint a thorough picture while asking for advice. It had nothing to do with his social value. It had to do with an older man grabbing my cart and pulling it about 4 feet away from me (I had to take a large step to grab the front of the cart.)

Further update - I did contact the Manager of the HEB on Monday. He called the police to take a report. I retold the story and was told by the SAPD officer that "it would be a cold day in "a warm place" before an officer would have arrested me." HEB Manager also swore out a tresspass order to keep the guy off HEB property.
I was called on Tuesday afternoon by the manager to say that the man had come back to the HEB store, police were called and he was arrested and taken by the police in handcuffs.

Thank you to everyone for helping me wrap my head around this. I am still new (since January 2009) to carrying but in all honesty, I probably would have said the same thing even if I wasn't CHL. The whole incident, from start to finish lasted about 10 seconds. That resulted in an hour and a half writing my statement and being interviewed by the officers. Now I get to wait to be called to testify if this goes to trial. Hopefully it won't.

Thanks again all.

Doug