WHEW! Weird experience on Saturday at HEB

[frazzled]

well, the indigent bum *did* begin the process of theft/robbery.

This is true. It all becomes an interesting fact pattern.

Does that statement constitute attempted theft? I'd proffer yep (unless its Austin)
Does a threat of violence as a response constitute a crime, with no brandishing? I'd proffer no (unless its Austin). Our poster did not brandish, so there's no immediate threat of harm, just the words which wouldn't rise to the necessary level.

[dicion]

Does that statement constitute attempted theft? I'd proffer yep (unless its Austin)

It wasn't just a statement. He Grabbed, and pulled the OP's cart away from him.
That to me, represents force being used by the bum to begin this confrontation.

If he were there just saying stuff, thats a different matter, but he physically grabbed, pulled, and hung onto the OP's now posessions.
How is this different than someone grabbing a lady's purse from her shoulder and saying 'give me money to get your purse back'.
It's not. The bum grabbed a container of this person's belongings from their posession.

The OP responding with threat of deadly force is force, as stated in the statutes. He responded to force with force. Sounds perfectly legit to me.

Then again, I'm sure All of us would hope that members of this forum ended up on their jury in a case like this

[pbwalker]

Had to go get some groceries at HEB. I parked off to the side (not directly in front of the HEB doors but off to the side in the main FRONT parking lot - not on the side of the buiding.) I parked to the right of an old UHaul panel truck. A small car was on my passenger side.

Went in, got the stuff and was putting it in the passenger floorboard on my truck. The small car left and van was parked there. UHaul was still there. Point is, I couldn't see either direction other than along my truck - front to back. I was in the open door of my truck with the basket basically blocking me in (pulled cart in behind me as I opened the door.)

I had put 2 bags in the floorboard, turned back to get 2 more bags and saw my basket getting pulled back. I looked up and an older black man (obviously either homeless or without any way to do laundry) pulling my basket out from between the van and my truck. As I grabbed the front of the basket he says "give me some change and I'll give you your basket." He didn't sound threatening and he was smiling but I was a tad bit startled and just a wee bit upset (changed for 10 year old rule - I'm learning). I reply, "give me my basket or I'll shot you in the face." Didn't yell but was trying to sound intemidating. I never reached for nor did I pull my weapon (as that would have been wrong.) He turned and walked away quickly. I watched and he crossed the parking lot. I quickly finished putting my groceries in the truck, shut the door, locked the truck, pushed the cart to the holder thingie. Came back, got in my truck and drove out. As I crossed the main street in front of HEB, the man is standing on the corner with a "I am homeless and hungry. Please help. God bless you?" sign seeking contributions.

Now, a day later...I am wondering if I might have done wrong by threatening even if I made no indication at all that I would or could follow up on the threat. Did I mess up?

Doug edited to fix 10 year old rule and numerous spelling mistakes. sorry

Hey Doug - If you don't mind me asking, which HEB was this? NW / NE side of town? The HEB near me seems to be getting shadier and shadier each day and it wouldn't surprise me if this was my local HEB.

I'm glad it all worked out for you and to be honest, your response sounds like something I would say (I got a good chuckle out of it). You didn't have to draw and no one got hurt. That's a good outcome in my eyes...

[Keith B]

Actually, not sure if the OP's statement of 'I'll shoot you in the face' constitutes a threat of deadly force in and of itself. He didn't display a weapon of any kind, and he didn't state WHAT he would shoot the guy in the face with. He could have been implying he would shoot him in the face with OC, a water gun, or even pull out some shaving cream from his shopping cart.

Disclaimer: IANAL, I dont play one on TV, and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[dicion]

Actually, not sure if the OP's statement of 'I'll shoot you in the face' constitutes a threat of deadly force in and of itself. He didn't display a weapon of any kind, and he didn't state WHAT he would shoot the guy in the face with. He could have been implying he would shoot him in the face with OC, a water gun, or even pull out some shaving cream from his shopping cart.

Disclaimer: IANAL, I dont play one on TV, and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I'm sure he meant he'd shoot him in the face with the Ketchup bottle in the cart right there in front of him
Those things have some decent range with those new no-spill caps.

[frazzled]

Does that statement constitute attempted theft? I'd proffer yep (unless its Austin)

It wasn't just a statement. He Grabbed, and pulled the OP's cart away from him.
That to me, represents force being used by the bum to begin this confrontation.

If he were there just saying stuff, thats a different matter, but he physically grabbed, pulled, and hung onto the OP's now posessions.
How is this different than someone grabbing a lady's purse from her shoulder and saying 'give me money to get your purse back'.
It's not. The bum grabbed a container of this person's belongings from their posession.

Sorry, you're right and I agree with all of it (except Austin where he would be put on the ballot to be mayor. Am I joking?...)

The OP responding with threat of deadly force is force, as stated in the statutes. He responded to force with force. Sounds perfectly legit to me.

Then again, I'm sure All of us would hope that members of this forum ended up on their jury in a case like this

Thats the fact pattern issue though. The OP responded. But does his response constitute the threat of deadly force? There's a legal standard here and I am sure 8 gazillion cases. Mere statements do not necessarily meet it.

[arnoldstrong]

It's very easy to second guess...IMO you resolved the situation without anyone getting hurt or any property being damaged or stolen--that alone is an accomplishment

[frazzled]

It's very easy to second guess...IMO you resolved the situation without anyone getting hurt or any property being damaged or stolen--that alone is an accomplishment

Agreed. I am not second guessing the original poster at all. Frankly he probably acted better than I would have.
grabbing your cart is an excellent way to have the GG overact and freakout.

I get panhandled a lot since Katrina (in Houston). Often at the bus stop. I'm actually one of the idiots that will give them money. But if you touch me, or touch my stuff I'm going to freak out. I think most people are going to freak out and go into threat mode.

Good way to get hurt, not a good way to get money.

[C-dub]

Personally, in this situation, I probably would have made it clear that it would be in his best interest to go away. I could have also told him that as soon as I got the rest of my groceries he could have the cart.

[03Lightningrocks]

But if you touch me, or touch my stuff I'm going to freak out. I think most people are going to freak out and go into threat mode.

Was it you that had the cell phone get used as an ashtray?

[LaserTex]

[quote="pbwalker

Hey Doug - If you don't mind me asking, which HEB was this? NW / NE side of town? The HEB near me seems to be getting shadier and shadier each day and it wouldn't surprise me if this was my local HEB.

I'm glad it all worked out for you and to be honest, your response sounds like something I would say (I got a good chuckle out of it). You didn't have to draw and no one got hurt. That's a good outcome in my eyes...[/quote]

Culebra and Tezel on NW Side.

[Jungle Work]

I believe a good case could be made before a Grand Jury tha the Bum was committing robbery and that by taking hold of the cart was the use of force.

Sec. 31.03.  THEFT.  (a)  A person commits an offense if he unlawfully appropriates property with intent to deprive the owner of property.
(b)  Appropriation of property is unlawful if:
(1)  it is without the owner's effective consent;
(2)  the property is stolen and the actor appropriates the property knowing it was stolen by another; or
(3)  property in the custody of any law enforcement agency was explicitly represented by any law enforcement agent to the actor as being stolen and the actor appropriates the property believing it was stolen by another.

Sec. 29.02.  ROBBERY.  (a)  A person commits an offense if, in the course of committing theft as defined in Chapter 31 and with intent to obtain or maintain control of the property, he:
(1)  intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causes bodily injury to another; or
(2)  intentionally or knowingly threatens or places another in fear of imminent bodily injury or death.
(b)  An offense under this section is a felony of the second degree.
Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

Sec. 9.04.  THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE.  The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.
Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

Bums sometimes don't think of the unintended consequences of their actions.

Jungle Work

[lws380]

Your post reminds me that i need to stay alert at all times. Especially in parking lots. I try to park away from everyone in a parking lot to give me more area to see. I'll pass many parking spaces to do this.

Since you had to ask if you did right, you must have second guessed your remarks. You did ok, but I think you could do a little better. That is be forceful, but don't go straight to the "i'll shoot you" option.

I would have called the police immediately and stated what happened. I always want to be the first to call, as I think that helps you. You never know who might hear you or see you and call first.

Thanks for the post!

[karder]

I know I am just echoing what many others have already said here, but I think you did good. There was a confrontation, you neutralized it, no one got hurt. That is about as successful as a confrontation can end. The only thing I would suggest is calling the police. I know at the time you were probably shaken up and just wanted to get out of there, which is totally understandable, but that guy is going to hurt someone. He has been begging for a while and now he is testing the waters with a more aggressive approach. He will continue to refine that technique and escalate the aggression until he is apprehended, hurts someone, or gets hurt himself by someone he confronts. The best thing that can happen is that the police pick him up and hopefully send him to someone who can help him.

[Liberty]

I believe a good case could be made before a Grand Jury tha the Bum was committing robbery and that by taking hold of the cart was the use of force.

The only problem is that the accused doesn't get to to present a case before a grand jury, The Grand jury is the prosecutors circus of which he alone gets to be ringmaster.