UPDATE: Coburn vs. Sotomayor

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jimlongley
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Re: Coburn vs. Sotomayor

#46

Post by jimlongley »

stevie_d_64 wrote:
jimlongley wrote:An intelligent person would not have answered a question about the right to self defense by citing NY State laws, knowing, that first, the citation would be limited in scope, not applicable in a SCOTUS setting, and second that everyone with any intelligence would see right through her avoidance.
Well, I am going to go against the grain here and say she is sharp as a tack on these issues...She is exactly what Obama wanted...

She is drawing ire from us and many other single issue people, and any attacks on her can immediately be labled as racist...Perfect liberal political play...And the state controlled media will lap that up like grape kool-aid in Gayana...

This goes to my basic premise...If you do not understand, or in this case, fully understand how to destroy a inalienable, moral right as this is, I have no use for you in any capacity as a politician (elected official) apointed or elected, or even a citizen...

Yep, that pretty harsh, but then again...Its just me...
Even "sharp as a tack" does not necessarily imply intelligence. She's quick on her feet, to be sure, she came up with some awfully inventive ways to avoid answering direct questions, and I doubt that she would accept such answers in her court, but intelligence would still imply the awareness that anyone with the , for that matter, does anyone even remember what a tack is? :???:
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Re: Coburn vs. Sotomayor

#47

Post by Abraham »

Purplehood,

If her statement regarding the wisdom of latina vs. white people is typical and her typical statement isn't racist, perhaps I don't know a duck when I hear it quack...

If bubba spouts a "typical" redneck sentiment would he get a pass? Or would his statement be regarded as purely cultural with no bias. Heaven forfend. This person is simply misunderstood. Why anyone employing common sense regarding cultural declarations would surely know the difference. Why, dear old bubba, hasn't a racist bone in his lily white body. He just says stuff that sounds like racism, looks like racism, feels like it too, but hey, he's simply a product of his culture and wouldn't act out anything like he sounds.

(psssst, do you buy that?)

No?

Me neither.
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Re: Coburn vs. Sotomayor

#48

Post by Purplehood »

Abraham wrote:Purplehood,

If her statement regarding the wisdom of latina vs. white people is typical and her typical statement isn't racist, perhaps I don't know a duck when I hear it quack...

If bubba spouts a "typical" redneck sentiment would he get a pass? Or would his statement be regarded as purely cultural with no bias. Heaven forfend. This person is simply misunderstood. Why anyone employing common sense regarding cultural declarations would surely know the difference. Why, dear old bubba, hasn't a racist bone in his lily white body. He just says stuff that sounds like racism, looks like racism, feels like it too, but hey, he's simply a product of his culture and wouldn't act out anything like he sounds.

(psssst, do you buy that?)

No?

Me neither.
Alright, tell me this. Why is referring to herself as a "Wise Latina woman" racist? Pompous and egotistical, yeah. Racist? I didn't hear her quacking.
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Re: Coburn vs. Sotomayor

#49

Post by bdickens »

Referring to herself as a "wise latina woman" is not racist. Saying that a "wise latina woman" will, because of her background, necessarily make better judgements than a white male is.
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Re: Coburn vs. Sotomayor

#50

Post by Purplehood »

Sounds like every former female in-law that I ever had.

/shrug

I just can't get bothered over it. And I sure don't see it as any kind of disqualifier for SCOTUS.
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Re: Coburn vs. Sotomayor

#51

Post by bdickens »

*shrug*
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Re: Coburn vs. Sotomayor

#52

Post by casingpoint »

:headscratch

:lol::


:evil2:
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Re: UPDATE: Coburn vs. Sotomayor

#53

Post by stevie_d_64 »

Alan gets full credit for this one, I thought everyone should enjoy these little nuggets...


Sotomayer Overlooks All 14 Supreme Court Self-Defense Cases

High Court has examined every aspect of self defense
Entire nation falsely believes the issue has never come up

For Immediate Release: Sotomayer Misses All 14 Self Defense Cases

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE July 21, 2009

by Alan Korwin, Co-Author
Supreme Court Gun Cases

In Congressional testimony, Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayer claimed she couldn't think of a self-defense case having come before the Supreme Court, adding, "I could be wrong, but I can't think of one." Independent research shows that fourteen separate Supreme Court cases, from 1895 to 1985, addressed every basic aspect of personal self defense. All of them held that self defense is a valid, justifiable and long-standing tenet of American law.

The Bloomfield Press book "Supreme Court Gun Cases" (Kopel, Halbrook, Korwin), released in 2003 and in the Supreme Court's library, covers the 92 High Court gun cases in existence at that time. Four additional gun cases (plus the original 92) are included in the followup, "The Heller Case: Gun Rights Affirmed," released in 2008. The fourteen cases that directly address self defense are summarized below in Q&A format. Full summaries of the cases are found in "The Heller Case" book, http://www.gunlaws.com/hc.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, and the cases themselves can be linked to from the Scottsdale, Ariz.-based company's website, http://www.gunlaws.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, using the National Directory button.
The brief index below is a convenient research and navigation tool, and a way to set the record straight on what the Court has already done. Read the entire case for a thorough understanding of each one.

The news media, pundits, Congress and Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayer have unfortunately exhibited complete ignorance of these cases, and public policy is harmed by that lack of knowledge.

The Supreme Court has recognized, addressed and answered all the most fundamental questions about self defense. The idea that they have never addressed this core American issue is completely false, as the numerous cases clearly demonstrate. The news media is encouraged to correct any misconceptions that may exist on this subject and in Ms. Sotomayer's sworn testimony.

IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER:

KEY: Name Date Citation Page

Acers v. United States 1896 164 U.S. 388 238
Is fear of a deadly attack, without reasonable demonstrated grounds for the fear, sufficient to support a claim of self defense [NO]; Must the danger be immediate [YES]; Can any object be considered as a deadly weapon depending on how it was used [YES].

Alberty v. United States 1896 162 U.S. 499 231
If a husband sees another man trying to get into his wife’s room window at night is it natural for him to investigate further [YES]; Is the husband under a duty to retreat when attacked with a knife under such circumstances [NO]; May the husband use only as much force as is necessary to repel the assault [YES]; If in an ensuing confrontation the husband shoots and kills the other man, then flees, must his flight in and of itself be seen as evidence of his guilt [NO].

Allen v. United States 1896 164 U.S. 492 241
Are words alone sufficient provocation to justify an assault [NO]; Are words alone sufficient to reduce murder to manslaughter [NO]; Can premeditation and intent to kill be determined from your actions [YES]; Although flight after a possibly criminal event may suggest guilt, does it prove it conclusively [NO].

Allison v. United States 1895 160 U.S. 203 216
Is it reasonable to believe that you’re in immediate deadly danger if a person, known to be abusive, known to carry a pistol, and who has made public threats against your life, makes a motion as if to draw down on you, even if it turns out he wasn’t armed at the time [YES]; If there is no corroborating evidence besides your testimony, may the jury decide to take your word for it and acquit based on your credibility [YES]; If you have your deer rifle with you while visiting a friend’s house and your adversary shows up, and in an ensuing confrontation you shoot him, can the judge instruct the jury that you’re guilty of murder if you armed yourself to go hunt down your adversary, when there is no evidence to support this claim [NO].

Andersen v. United States 1898 170 U.S. 481 255
If an indictment is brought charging that a defendant shot and then threw a victim’s body into the sea, so the exact cause of death cannot be known, is the indictment flawed and invalid [NO]; Do the elements of self defense have to be present for an accused person to successfully claim self defense [YES].

Beard v. United States 1895 158 U.S. 550 208
Can you stand your ground with a shotgun against an unprovoked armed attack on your property near your home [YES]; Is there a greater duty to retreat on your own property than in your house [NO].

Brown v. United States 1921 256 U.S. 335 285
Is there a duty to retreat when attacked by a man with a knife [NO]; Believing you’re in a mortal conflict, if you fire a shot in the heat of combat, which in cool reflection later may be seen as unnecessary, may you still be acquitted on grounds of self defense [YES]; Is your right of self defense roughly similar in your home, on your land, and at your work [YES]; Can detached reflection be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife [NO].

Gourko v. United States 1894 153 U.S. 183 189
If you shoot someone who has repeatedly threatened you, and the circumstances of the shooting are not found to be justifiable as self defense, does the fact that you armed yourself in response to the threat automatically make the shooting murder (as opposed to manslaughter) [NO].

Logan v. United States 1892 144 U.S. 263 180
Does the 2nd Amendment guarantee a preexisting right recognized by the Constitution, and not a right created by the Constitution [YES]; Is a prisoner in legal custody entitled to protection “while he is deprived of the ordinary means of defending and protecting himself” [YES].

Rowe v. United States 1896 164 U.S. 546 247
If a man is provoked into making a minor assault on someone, and then backs off in good faith, is his right to self defense restored if the person he assaulted attacks him with a deadly weapon? [YES]; Is he required to retreat under such circumstances [NO]; Is he under an obligation to try to only wound an attacker when fighting for his life [NO]; Can either party in a mutual combat claim self defense [NO].

Starr v. United States 1894 153 U.S. 614 196
If a law officer legally serving a warrant shoots at a suspect without identifying himself, is the suspect justified in shooting back and killing the officer in self defense [YES].

Tennessee v. Garner 1985 471 U.S. 1 428
Is the use of deadly force by police to prevent the escape of all felony suspects constitutionally unreasonable [YES]; Is the use of deadly force by a police officer permissible under the 4th Amendment, if necessary to prevent the escape of a felony suspect who threatens the officer with a weapon, or if there is probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, if, where feasible, some warning has been given [YES].

Thompson v. United States 1894 155 U.S. 271 203
Does arming yourself after being threatened, and then traveling the only road in the area where you know your adversary may be, turn a subsequent shooting of the adversary during a confrontation into murder? [NO]; Is arming yourself for legitimate self defense premeditation [NO].

Wallace v. United States 1896 162 U.S. 466 224
Is it up to the jury to decide whether a homicide is murder, manslaughter or justifiable [YES]; Does a perfect right of self defense require blamelessness in the confrontation and an act of necessity only [YES]; Can you claim self defense if you had intentionally brought about a lethal conflict [NO]; Is it up to the jury to decide whether you armed yourself defensively or otherwise [YES]; Is it murder if you enter a quarrel without felonious or malicious intent, and then, under reasonable belief of imminent mortal danger, you kill the assailant [NO]; Does the fact that you deliberately go and arm yourself, for self defense or other innocent purpose, turn a subsequent shooting necessarily from manslaughter to murder [NO].
Oh yeah, she knows her stuff!!! /sarcasm
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Re: Coburn vs. Sotomayor

#54

Post by stevie_d_64 »

Purplehood wrote:Sounds like every former female in-law that I ever had.

/shrug

I just can't get bothered over it. And I sure don't see it as any kind of disqualifier for SCOTUS.
Look up...Look down... :smilelol5: :thumbs2:
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Re: UPDATE: Coburn vs. Sotomayor

#55

Post by Purplehood »

In Congressional testimony, Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayer claimed she couldn't think of a self-defense case having come before the Supreme Court, adding, "I could be wrong, but I can't think of one."
That was a cheap shot. You left out three words at the end of her statement, and you complain when the "liberal" media does the same thing.

If you leave those three words out, than all of the shrill articles and diatribes above apply. When you put the whole statement out there for everyone to see and analyze, you get a typical lawyer response but not the one it is being made out to be.

I will leave you all to draw your own conclusions on this limited data and find the actual words she spoke. It is apparent that some will go to the exact same lengths that they decry in liberals and leftists to garner the results that they want.
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Re: Coburn vs. Sotomayor

#56

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Purplehood wrote:Sounds like every former female in-law that I ever had.
Careful. You may be close to making a racist and sexist statement yourself. As it is, it is a generalization only about your in-laws, and not about all latinas. So I suppose you are suggesting this character flaw is only a family trait and not necessarily true for all latinas.

However if you are implying that racism and sexism is common to nearly all latinas and therefore should be tolerated since it is a trait that is inherent to their race or gender, then you are just as racist and sexist as Sotomayor.

The fact is that Sotomayor is not required or expected to make racist and sexist statements because she is a latina. She makes these statements as a result of her own opinions and choices and not because it is some kind of cultural imperative. It would be the same as saying that young black men are required or expected to become criminals or gang members because it is a cultural imperative, or that young Arab men are required or expected to become terrorists because it is a cultural imperative. Those would be racist statements as well. In all cases of gang bangers, Arab terrorists, or racist-sexist latinas, it is about individual choice and opinion and not excusable just because in some segment of their culture it is accepted. Just because many of the latinas you know are racist and sexist does not make it an expected or acceptable trait. I am quite certain I can come up with a long list latinas that I know who do not fit this mold, and in fact I have never met one who was a racist as far as I can tell. If the lady that cuts my hair has managed to resist this cultural influence to become racist, then certainly a Supreme Court nominee should be expected to do the same.
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Re: UPDATE: Coburn vs. Sotomayor

#57

Post by mr.72 »

Purplehood wrote:
In Congressional testimony, Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayer claimed she couldn't think of a self-defense case having come before the Supreme Court, adding, "I could be wrong, but I can't think of one."
That was a cheap shot. You left out three words at the end of her statement, and you complain when the "liberal" media does the same thing.

If you leave those three words out, than all of the shrill articles and diatribes above apply. When you put the whole statement out there for everyone to see and analyze, you get a typical lawyer response but not the one it is being made out to be.

I will leave you all to draw your own conclusions on this limited data and find the actual words she spoke. It is apparent that some will go to the exact same lengths that they decry in liberals and leftists to garner the results that they want.
I tried to find some extension of her quote that invalidates the argument that she was unaware of ~14 Supreme Court cases which dealt specifically with self-defense, or at least conceded the implicit right to self defense by ruling whether that right applied to the circumstances at hand in the case. I was unable to find such a quote, so if you have it, I would like to see it posted here so we can make the same conclusion as you have.

If you are suggesting that by referring to self-defense laws mostly being handled with state law and therefore not subject to Supreme Court judgment, well that's a complete dodge since there are in fact Supreme Court cases which do deal specifically with the exact question that Coburn asked at least in principle if not in precise terminology. So if you are trying to say, since there was no case on the books specifically asking the exact question "is there a Constitutional right to self-defense", then her answer is correct, then that's a deliberately misleading answer given the fact that the question was rhetorical to begin with. Her answer reveals that she is willing to slice and dice the law to make it suit her personal agenda, rather than rest upon the historical presumption that self-defense is a basic natural right that cannot be abridged by the Constitution. Now, maybe it would be preferable if Coburn had phrased his question differently or worded it more precisely, such as, "are you aware of any Supreme Court case which has recognized the natural right to self-defense?" I guess he should have known he was dealing with a slippery, duplicitous person, given that she was an attorney.
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Re: Coburn vs. Sotomayor

#58

Post by Purplehood »

mr.72 wrote:
Purplehood wrote:Sounds like every former female in-law that I ever had.
Careful. You may be close to making a racist and sexist statement yourself. As it is, it is a generalization only about your in-laws, and not about all latinas. So I suppose you are suggesting this character flaw is only a family trait and not necessarily true for all latinas.

However if you are implying that racism and sexism is common to nearly all latinas and therefore should be tolerated since it is a trait that is inherent to their race or gender, then you are just as racist and sexist as Sotomayor.

The fact is that Sotomayor is not required or expected to make racist and sexist statements because she is a latina. She makes these statements as a result of her own opinions and choices and not because it is some kind of cultural imperative. It would be the same as saying that young black men are required or expected to become criminals or gang members because it is a cultural imperative, or that young Arab men are required or expected to become terrorists because it is a cultural imperative. Those would be racist statements as well. In all cases of gang bangers, Arab terrorists, or racist-sexist latinas, it is about individual choice and opinion and not excusable just because in some segment of their culture it is accepted. Just because many of the latinas you know are racist and sexist does not make it an expected or acceptable trait. I am quite certain I can come up with a long list latinas that I know who do not fit this mold, and in fact I have never met one who was a racist as far as I can tell. If the lady that cuts my hair has managed to resist this cultural influence to become racist, then certainly a Supreme Court nominee should be expected to do the same.
Feel free to question any Latina you like. I would seriously doubt that they take umbrage with Sotomayor's statement. I expect that I am as racist and sexist as anyone, anywhere. I simply don't let it overwhelm my attitude towards others.
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Re: UPDATE: Coburn vs. Sotomayor

#59

Post by Abraham »

I'm sure those who admire Jeremiah Wright insist he hasn't a racist bone in his body either...

Even mentioning Wright's strident racism will motivate only a shrug from those who choose not to address his bigotry.

(Afterall, he's one of theirs: So they hear no evil, see no evil...)

It must be tough when you're a leftist and your chosen favorite also happens to voice a big part of what you condemn. Uh OH!

How to soften this unpleasantness?

Answer: Insist you can't see the truth while looking through the fingers of your uplifted hands and voila' - it goes away...
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Re: UPDATE: Coburn vs. Sotomayor

#60

Post by 74novaman »

mr.72 wrote:
Purplehood wrote:
In Congressional testimony, Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayer claimed she couldn't think of a self-defense case having come before the Supreme Court, adding, "I could be wrong, but I can't think of one."
That was a cheap shot. You left out three words at the end of her statement, and you complain when the "liberal" media does the same thing.

If you leave those three words out, than all of the shrill articles and diatribes above apply. When you put the whole statement out there for everyone to see and analyze, you get a typical lawyer response but not the one it is being made out to be.

I will leave you all to draw your own conclusions on this limited data and find the actual words she spoke. It is apparent that some will go to the exact same lengths that they decry in liberals and leftists to garner the results that they want.
I tried to find some extension of her quote that invalidates the argument that she was unaware of ~14 Supreme Court cases which dealt specifically with self-defense, or at least conceded the implicit right to self defense by ruling whether that right applied to the circumstances at hand in the case. I was unable to find such a quote, so if you have it, I would like to see it posted here so we can make the same conclusion as you have.
I'm curious to see these statement changing 3 words as well.
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