Odessa homeowner shoots man in auto burglary

[sparx]

What would Jesus do?

Maybe poke him in the rear with Peter's sword and tell him not to do it again?

[Venus Pax]

The only movable property I can see myself defending is one of my pets. I know that doesn't seem logical to many, but my pets are my family. I've put a lot of time, money, and energy into them.
Also, the type of person to steal a pet may just be the type of person to use them to train fighting dogs, and I don't want my pets to die that way.

I realize that I would have a hard time defending myself in court on this one, but I would have a harder time sleeping at night if I didn't know the fate of one of my pets.

My car and my truck don't feel pain. They are also covered by insurance, and are replaceable. Those items aren't worth the time in civil court.

[sparx]

The only movable property I can see myself defending is one of my pets. I know that doesn't seem logical to many, but my pets are my family.

Perfectly logical to me, and same here. My wife and I have no children other than our pets, and that's what they are to us... children. I have gone without, and will continue to do so, to make sure they get what they need.

I realize that I would have a hard time defending myself in court on this one, but I would have a harder time sleeping at night if I didn't know the fate of one of my pets.

Not if I (or my wife) was on the jury, and would have no problem of voting for the criminal to be treated in the very same manner as they treated your pet. When it comes to me I am a forgiving person, but when it comes to one of my "kids," it's an eye for an eye. I would be able to put myself in your position very easily, and it wouldn't be a good day for the criminal's defense to pick me to be on that jury, but would be happy to serve on a case like this.

My car and my truck don't feel pain. They are also covered by insurance, and are replaceable. Those items aren't worth the time in civil court.

Same here, really, but in the heat of the moment if I were to actually catch the guy(s) in the act, they better be nicer to me than Mary Poppins and follow every directive without the slightest hesitation or I might be tempted to put a round in their rear, too!

[cyphur]

Pets are family in my eyes. They get defended just like the kids.

[pastor1]

Well, according to the law of Moses, if an intruder is struck and killed while invading ones home, the home owner is considered innocent of the criminal's blood. If it happens in the daylight, the home owner is guilty of manslaughter. I believe the vehicle and home would be considered the same by God. But I also agree with the statement, "What's more valuable, a car or a human life." I believe the statutes about this happening during the night is greatly influenced by the Mosaic Law. That being said, I believe Jesus would have let the perps go without firing a shot.

[seamusTX]

To answer my question in more detail, I look at it this way: Someone who is stealing property is doing wrong, but he deserves a chance to straighten up and fly right. I would rather not have it on my conscience that I killed him and sent him straight to hell, even if he deserved it.

I would confront him, and that might scare him enough to change his evil ways. If he then attacked me, it would be a different situation.

I suspect the law permitting the use of deadly force to stop theft or criminal mischief in the night time is a holdover from the days when rural people had to provide their own defense and there was no such thing as calling 911.

- Jim

[pastor1]

I agree with you as far as our own civil law is concerned. I was just putting the Mosaic Law in prospective with our own civil law in regards to using deadly force during the night as far as property was concerned. I was also giving my honest opinion as to "What would Jesus do?" if He caught someone stealing His car during the night. I am certainly not Jesus and I'm pretty sure (maybe I'm not so sure now that I think about it more) I'd use deadly force if someone were stealing my car during the night. If the Lord thought I'd done wrong, I'd face the consequences with Him later but I'm pretty sure state law would be on my side. I hope the Lord would keep me from such circumstances. (I do beleive, by the way, His forgiveness is unlimited. But I wouldn't argue the point with you)

[BobCat]

I normally read these threads about the circumstances under which one would use deadly force with great interest, but don't usually respond. Want the education, usually have nothing useful to add.

Someone (on another forum) posted that some famous firearms trainer used the acronym IDOL - In Defence OF Life - to make it simple. I tend to agree, in the most general terms - I will draw and fire if it is the only way to preserve the life of a (relatively) innocent person (I know no one is totally innocent - I mean someone who was not asking for trouble).

At my last CHL renewal the instructor pointed out (A) in 9.42:

(quote)
(3) he reasonably believes that:


(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or


(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
(end quote)

His point is that much property is insured and therefore "recoverable by other means" in a sense. One might face charges for protecting property in that case. I'm not claiming he is absolutely right, just that one needs to be very, very sure before dropping the hammer on someone else (even if he is a "bad guy") for stealing - without his expressing violent intent toward any person.

As far as pets - my screen name comes from the two stuffed bobcats in my closet. Hunting/killing my furry family, in their own yard, is a fatal error. My cats are not my children, but I do consider them family.

I didn't write the following, but it is worth passing along to those who treasure their pets:
------------------------------------------------------------------
To All Non-Pet Owners Who Visit & Like to Complain About Our Pets:

1. They live here. You don't.
2. If you don't want their hair on your clothes, stay off the furniture. (That's why they call it "fur"niture).
3. I like my pets a lot better than I like most people.
4. To you, it's an animal. To me, he/she is an adopted son/daughter who is short, hairy, walks on all fours and doesn't speak clearly.
----------------------------------------------------------------

And, I might add, does want to borrow my truck, raise my insurance rates, or need college tuition paid for.

Regards,
Andrew

[kw5kw]

... snipped...
His point is that much property is insured and therefore "recoverable by other means" in a sense. One might face charges for protecting property in that case. I'm not claiming he is absolutely right, just that one needs to be very, very sure before dropping the hammer on someone else (even if he is a "bad guy") for stealing - without his expressing violent intent toward any person.

Interesting,
Good point... however...
Do I send the bill for the decuctable to the BG?
Do I send a bill to the BG for the difference between my old rate, and my new rate?

What happens to the property that I've lost that can't be replaced because they're "one-of-a-kind" or they simply don't make them any more?

How much value I place on my Grandmother's old photo album? And should I send a bill to the BG for that? After all, he destroyed them because they meant nothing to him!

Do I also get to send the bill for my car rental to the BG because he stole my truck?

This is giving the BG's more a less a cartblanche license to steal and telling me that it's ok that they take what I've worked hard for, and they can just come and take it away from me in a matter of minutes or hours.

Something just ain't rite.

My tools were replaceable by insurance, sure, my truck was recovered... and never properly repaired because they ran and jumped over curbs, ditches and more curbs at a high rate of speed and the tires were flattened by tire stakes and tore wiring and fuel lines apart just to name a few things... and the BG just got a slap on the wrist because he turned informant and got a deal.

Something just ain't rite.

They come after my stuff again, they'd better run quick!

Russ

...
As far as pets - my screen name comes from the two stuffed bobcats in my closet. Hunting/killing my furry family, in their own yard, is a fatal error. My cats are not my children, but I do consider them family.

I didn't write the following, but it is worth passing along to those who treasure their pets:
------------------------------------------------------------------
To All Non-Pet Owners Who Visit & Like to Complain About Our Pets:

1. They live here. You don't.
2. If you don't want their hair on your clothes, stay off the furniture. (That's why they call it "fur"niture).
3. I like my pets a lot better than I like most people.
4. To you, it's an animal. To me, he/she is an adopted son/daughter who is short, hairy, walks on all fours and doesn't speak clearly.
----------------------------------------------------------------

And, I might add, does want to borrow my truck, raise my insurance rates, or need college tuition paid for.

Regards,
Andrew

On the pets... +1

[cyphur]

I didn't write the following, but it is worth passing along to those who treasure their pets:
------------------------------------------------------------------
To All Non-Pet Owners Who Visit & Like to Complain About Our Pets:

1. They live here. You don't.
2. If you don't want their hair on your clothes, stay off the furniture. (That's why they call it "fur"niture).
3. I like my pets a lot better than I like most people.
4. To you, it's an animal. To me, he/she is an adopted son/daughter who is short, hairy, walks on all fours and doesn't speak clearly.
----------------------------------------------------------------

I may have to make a nice actual sign for my front door when I get another pet. It spells out how I feel perfectly.

[Venus Pax]

I think I need to turn that into a sign on my front door too. It's something I want MIL to see.

[BobCat]

Howdy Russ,

You wrote:
"How much value I place on my Grandmother's old photo album? And should I send a bill to the BG for that? After all, he destroyed them because they meant nothing to him!"

This is almost the exact example the instructor used - he said, if the guy took your irreplaceable family pictures, and is stopping as he runs away to burn them one at a time, your property is clearly *not* recoverable so that 9.42 paragraph does not apply.

I doubt the instructor meant any of this to be taken literally. My impression is that he wanted to emphasize that, while one *can* leagally shoot someone to protect property, in some cases, one is best advised to shoot only to defend life. He was saying to take the "property" issues as they come up and evaluate each situation individually, and don't be in a hurry to shoot.

My wife and I live 2 miles out of town; our gravel road (from the paved County Road) is 1/2 mile long. Anyone I can see from my house needs a very good explanation of what he is doing there - but I don't think of shooting stranges on sight. The County guys who clean out the Count drainage ditch can be there, the pipeline guys can be there (but they ought to call first), and so forth.

At night, someone breaking into my barn/workshop is worth a call to 911, and a light on them, but not a long shot with my rifle. Someone breaking into my house at night - very different story, I fear for my life at that point.

This has been a very interesting thread. It is useful to think things through ahead of time, as much as possible - so one is not faced with life-or-death decisions with no forethought, when and if things go bad.

EDIT: Oh - I'm glad y'all like the Pets sign. They are such an important part of life - I have one cat, Zippy, who comes to dry my legs every morning when I get out of the shower. I start to get impatient - "Got to get to work!" and then stop and realize a few minutes with the cat, and a little affection, are among the things I go to work every day to earn the money to support.

Regards,
Andrew

[propellerhead]

Good thread!

I would not and do not leave precious and valuable items in my vehicles that are parked outside. Anything and everything in my vehicles fall under the category of stuff that can be replaced. Yes my vehicle is considered an extension of my house but would you keep your jewelry box in the outside shed? We can argue all day about the value of Grandma's photos but why was it in the car? Precious and valuable items stay inside the house. Not in the cars. It would be burglary before someone gets to them inside the house. Breaking into my house makes it an easy answer. Breaking into my car that's in my driveway or on the street brings makes it questionable.

Could the homeowner have used the threat of deadly force to apprehend the badguys? Would you?