Traffic Law Interpretation (& LEO Encounter), Flower Mound

[kw5kw]

Where's Steve when you need 'em!

[Rex B]

I'm sticking with what I was told in defensive driving decades ago: If you enter under yellow, you are golden.
I don't push that, but if my front bumper is past the white line, it's a Done Deal.
Take it to court.

[srothstein]

Well, kw5kw, I am here and willing to answer this. But, Skiprr already posted my first thought. Read the law instead of the handbooks and rumor.

Note that the entry to the intersection is permitted on green and forbidden on red. This is pretty clear. There is no law I am aware of on clearing the intersection before the red, and many left turns cannot be so completed on busy streets.

The yellow light law says you are warned that the permission to enter is withdrawn OR that the red is coming. It does not state explicitly that you cannot enter, and our laws are based on the presumption that anything not forbidden is permitted. So, you can enter the intersection on a yellow legally. If you enter legally, you can continue through legally.

The really interesting part of the law is what constitutes entering the intersection. Note that the law says the stop line if there exists one or the cross walk if there is no stop line. I know of several intersections where the stop line may be as much as 20 feet from the actual intersection (for accident investigation, the line of the side of the street continued across the other street). If any part of my car has passed this stop line, I can LEGALLY cross the intersection. I emphasize here that legally does NOT mean safely.

So, my advice is to not only fight the ticket, but also to subpoena the videotape from the officers car. Call the PD now and tell them to save the tape of the stop and then get the municipal court to issue the subpoena as quickly as possible. You want to get the recording of the officer saying it changed after you entered the intersection. Not every car has a video tape and they do not work all the time, but I would estimate your odds of getting it at about 75% if you hurry and diminishing as you wait. Tapes get reused if they still have the old VCR style, and videos get erased to save disk space. There is a time table that each PD sets on their own for retention of non-questioned videos.

With the tape (or the officer's admission), you should win the case. Not every judge will agree with my interpretation of the law, but this is pretty much a universal for police.

And, my comment on driving safely is a real warning. I always wait a few seconds when the light first turns green for just this reason. I will wait longer if there is a horn behind, but that is a different subject. There is a law that requires you to drive safely even if what you are dong is otherwise legal (545.401 Reckless driving).,

[Oldgringo]

Blah, Blah & Blah, ad nauseum.

The cemeterys are full of folk who had the green light. As someone said before, "yellow" means prepare to stop, not speed up. If you're in that big of a hurry, you should have left earlier and avoided the ticket, wreck, courtcase. lawsuit, etc, etc.

IOW, a failure to plan on your part should not create an emergency on my, or anyone else's, part.

[TrueFlog]

This reminds me of an article I read in the Dallas Morning News about a year ago. The article was about the proliferation of red light cameras in Dallas and went into some detail about the conditions under which a ticket may be issued. One of the criteria is that the light must be red before the driver enters the intersection or crosses the stop line/crosswalk. If he enters the intersection while the light is still yellow (or even green), no ticket may be issued. However, I do not know if the standard is unique to red light cameras (to cut down on false positives) or whether it would apply if you were observed by a real live cop.

I wonder - is there such an offense as "running a yellow light"? I was always taught that a yellow light means that a driver who has not yet entered the intersection should (must?) stop if he can safely do so. If he cannot safely stop, he may proceed through the intersection. So what happens if the driver can safely stop but does not? Does that constitute an actual traffic offense, and can he be ticketed for it? After reading Steve's post, it seems the answer is, "No."

[KD5NRH]

I fairly sure that if you have not exited the intersection when the light turns red, you are in violation. The yellow is to allow you time to clear the intersection before red, not a "get out of ticket" yellow.

Don't make many left turns, do you?

[DEADEYE1964]

Just curious, how was her attitude, my experience is the officer's I have come across in Flower Mound are real jerks. I live in the area and they will sit in left turn lanes shooting radar while people are behind them trying to turn left. ( JUST NORTH ON 2499 BEFORE YOU GET TO ABERDEEN). I have no problem them upholding the law, it is the attitude. I have a friend that has recived a few tickets from FM and the only time I was with him, the officer was rude. If you are coming into FM from Grapevine on 2499, the speed limit is 55mph, right before Aberdeen, it changes to 45mph, we live in the area and know this and where they sit. My friend was slowing down before he got into the 45mph zone, we saw the officer shooting radar, by the time he got to the sign, he was going 45. The officer lit him up and said he was going 47 in a 45, my friend disagreed and the officer wrote him up. I have NO respect for officers like that. If they have that much time to shoot radar for 2 mph over the speed limit while there is a crime rate in FM, they need to layoff half the force. The problem with that is that is an income stream and crime isn't. This is why people do not trust or like LEO'S, it is becoming more noticable with the generation of younger cops and their authority complex. Thsi is not a cop bashing thread, I know there are good cops out there, they are just becoming harder to find.

[Jeff B.]

No issue with the stop (aside from my suspicion that it's not correct), no attitude, in fact at the end, she asked what I was carrying, in a conversational tone. I do beleive that there are some on the FMPD that think they are on a COPS show and take things too far, they are very dedicated to bearing down on HS kids (who in fairness, will find trouble if its out there).

We had a pocketbook tossed on the walk in our cul-de-sac, and called to report it, the responding officer was very pleasant. A couple of years ago, one summer (early) Sunday morning, I had a knock at the door, and it was an FMPD Officer, who informed me that a number of cars up and down the street had been egged, one of mine had egg on it, and that I should spray it off or wash it before it baked on. So, like you say there are plenty of good police officers out there, probably most of them that get painted with the broad brush created by a few.

BTW, I appreciate all the input, opinions and conversation. I'm considering going down to the PD to ask abou the car video and see how long they'll have it. I thought about jumping on her answer, but didn't want to start to come across as hostile or an outhouse lawyer.

Jeff B.

[KRM45]

Well, kw5kw, I am here and willing to answer this. But, Skiprr already posted my first thought. Read the law instead of the handbooks and rumor.

Note that the entry to the intersection is permitted on green and forbidden on red. This is pretty clear. There is no law I am aware of on clearing the intersection before the red, and many left turns cannot be so completed on busy streets.

The yellow light law says you are warned that the permission to enter is withdrawn OR that the red is coming. It does not state explicitly that you cannot enter, and our laws are based on the presumption that anything not forbidden is permitted. So, you can enter the intersection on a yellow legally. If you enter legally, you can continue through legally.

The really interesting part of the law is what constitutes entering the intersection. Note that the law says the stop line if there exists one or the cross walk if there is no stop line. I know of several intersections where the stop line may be as much as 20 feet from the actual intersection (for accident investigation, the line of the side of the street continued across the other street). If any part of my car has passed this stop line, I can LEGALLY cross the intersection. I emphasize here that legally does NOT mean safely.

So, my advice is to not only fight the ticket, but also to subpoena the videotape from the officers car. Call the PD now and tell them to save the tape of the stop and then get the municipal court to issue the subpoena as quickly as possible. You want to get the recording of the officer saying it changed after you entered the intersection. Not every car has a video tape and they do not work all the time, but I would estimate your odds of getting it at about 75% if you hurry and diminishing as you wait. Tapes get reused if they still have the old VCR style, and videos get erased to save disk space. There is a time table that each PD sets on their own for retention of non-questioned videos.

With the tape (or the officer's admission), you should win the case. Not every judge will agree with my interpretation of the law, but this is pretty much a universal for police.

And, my comment on driving safely is a real warning. I always wait a few seconds when the light first turns green for just this reason. I will wait longer if there is a horn behind, but that is a different subject. There is a law that requires you to drive safely even if what you are dong is otherwise legal (545.401 Reckless driving).,

I was slow, but I want ot reiterate what was said here. You may also want to put a request in with the City Secratary for a record of the tape (ie. open records request).

[Rex B]

Were I you, I'd fax a requested in today ASAP, then follow it up with a phone call or visit tomorrow to make sure.

[tacticool]

Well, kw5kw, I am here and willing to answer this. But, Skiprr already posted my first thought. Read the law instead of the handbooks and rumor.

People should at least google the law instead of posting the opinion of their cousin's neighbor's dog walker who used to date a cop.

[seamusTX]

Yellow versus red light tickets are usually subjective. I got several early in my driving career, and I always got them dismissed. A couple of times I had to go to driver education, which at that time was just a one-hour lecture by a police officer. IOW, the OP stands a good chance of getting the ticket dismissed.

However, if you want to take the easy way out, lawyers who specialize in traffic tickets can get them dismissed almost every time (except for DWI and serious crashes). The entire cost is around $300, but you don't have to go to court or even meet with the lawyer.

- Jim

[Rex B]

If I'm right, I'm going to take it to court.
Even though the odds are I'll lose, when you're right, you're right.

[seamusTX]

That's fine, but the lawyers can get you off the hook when you are guilty.

- Jim

[Rex B]

Deferred Adjudication is cheaper, and that's what they do for your $300 90% of the time.