Traffic Law Interpretation (& LEO Encounter), Flower Mound

[Jeff B.]

Well, it finally happened. I got pulled over and I got ticketed. Essentially, at the intersection of FM1171 & FM2499, I was cited for a "Red Light Violation". THis intersection is a mess due to its configuration and ongoing construction immediately on the north side. What occured was that there wasa looong string of traffic waiting for the northbound green light, which finally came, there were the normal laggards, and a semi, flatbed in front which was especially slow, by the time I got to the light (white line/crosswalk), the light was and had been yellow for a while, it was going to go to red, very soon, no doubt. Having to deal with this crap on an ongoign basis has probably shortened my patience a bit, so I went on, and, I pretty much knew the light would be changing as I went through the intersection. Well, as I saw it, I had just started to clear the south side (white line/crosswalk) the light turned, so for probably 85% of trip through the intersection, the light was red. Immediately on crossing, a FMPD lit me up (following me through) and pulled me over.

The stop was uneventful, female officer came up, did the "touch" on the back of the truck, asked [abbreviated profanity deleted] DL & insurance card. I gave her my DL & CHL, and then after the "are you armed question" insurance (Bersa was in the console). At that point she told me I was stopped for a "Red Light Violation", to which I politley stated that I believed that I had entered the intersection on a yellow. She answered the "it turned while you were in the intersection", which was correct, without a doubt (leading to my question here). She then went back to the unit, came back with the magic ticket machine and had me sign. As Iwas signing, she did ask what I was carrying, which I answered, no no harmin the question.

So, my question is, who is correct, me or the officer? I thought that as long as you had entered the intersection on a yellow, you have the right of way. Apparently, the local interpretation is that you should not be in the intersection under a red. The second part of the question is on my course of action. Go to court on my interpretation and hope the officer has a good memory about stating that the light changed while I was in the intersection or eat the $200 bucks and do the deferred adjudication payoff to the town?

Jeff B.

[flb_78]

My understanding is that you cannot cross the stop line once the light is red. I don't know if you're supposed to be clear of the intersection or not though.

[Rex B]

If your front bumper has passed the white line before the light goes red, you are legal.
I'd set it for court immediately.
And be sure to write down exactly what she said now while it's fresh.
And read it back to her when you cross examine in court.

IANAL etc.

[suthdj]

IANAL however contrary to popular belief yellow does not mean go faster and if it was yellow before you entered the intersection you should have stopped, yes I know nobody does and that is the cause for many of accidents.

[KC5AV]

I don't know the local codes, but your description would not have gotten you a ticket at most of the various red light cameras that have popped up around the state.

I don't see that there would be any harm done going before the judge to argue your case. Maybe you could get some sort of deferred adjudication if they don't like your argument.

[WildBill]

I am unsure about Texas traffic laws, but in California they have what is known as the anti-gridlock lock law. The law, which was passed to improve traffic flow, makes it an offense to be stopped in an intersection while the light is red. This law is different than running a red light. In California the anti-gridlock ticket is not a moving violation, so no points on your DL. Maybe Texas has a similar law.

[C-dub]

I also thought that entering the intersection under a yellow was acceptable. I also thought that if the light turned red while in the intersection we had a right and a responsibility to clear that intersection. I would make the court date and see the judge. If you loose, and I did once, I was still offered deferred adjudication.

Mine was a speeding ticket and the officer wrote the wrong date on the ticket. I thought that this would get dismissed because of that, but the judge said that it only had to be on or about the date. I wasn't in a position to argue. He asked if I'd still like the deferred adj., so I took it. Then years later we hear about an HOV cop getting stopped in his personal vehicle in the HOV lane with only one occupant. A local news crew has it on camera since they were there doing a story. The ticket was later dismissed due to an error on the ticket.

[longtooth]

IANAL too but I believe you will find that the law will state that you must be out of the intersection before Red.

Enter green behind that slow tractor trailer in heavy traffic at creep speed & do not clear the intersection before red you are in violation.
Leave your rear quarter panel in the intersection because of stacked traffic & you will be "blocking an intersection."

Where are you ex traffic cops when we need a good one.

[flintknapper]

Caveat: I am NOT a lawyer…but here are my thoughts.


Sounds like you entered the intersection when the light was what I like to refer to as “stale yellow”.

You might be able to challenge your ticket based on the timing of the yellow light at the intersection. The National Standard is (1 second for every 10 mph of speed limit). Of course, other factors can be considered as well. If you go back and “time” the light (with an accurate stop watch) and find that it is below the N/S recommendations …then you MIGHT have an argument.

If you find that the yellow light timing for this intersection does meet the N/S, then I wouldn’t hold out much hope for avoiding the ticket. You will need to document (video) your findings and have a reliable witness testify to the same… if you choose to contest the ticket in this fashion.



The general rules regarding yellow lights are:

(A) Drivers who can safely stop before reaching the intersection should do so when they see the light turn
yellow. They have to consider their speed and their distance from the intersection when deciding whether
or not they can safely stop. If they try to decelerate too quickly then their tires might skid dangerously or
they might get “rear ended” by a car behind them.

(B) Drivers who are too close to the intersection to safely stop should continue on at constant speed. The
yellow light should give them enough time to make it completely through the intersection before it turns
red. If the light turns from yellow to red too quickly then the car will still be in the intersection when the
light turns red and a cop might give them a ticket that’s not really their fault. It would be the fault of the
city’s traffic engineers for not setting the timing of the yellow light properly.


Good luck Sir,

Flint.

[dicion]

Caveat: I am NOT a lawyer…but here are my thoughts.


Sounds like you entered the intersection when the light was what I like to refer to as “stale yellow”.

You might be able to challenge your ticket based on the timing of the yellow light at the intersection. The National Standard is (1 second for every 10 mph of speed limit). Of course, other factors can be considered as well. If you go back and “time” the light (with an accurate stop watch) and find that it is below the N/S recommendations …then you MIGHT have an argument.

Multiple National-Certified Traffic Signal Tech here, so I'll lay out the rules as I know them on Signal Operation. Standard IANAL, YMMV, etc applies.
Also, I am not an engineer, Just a tech :) I can implement plans given to my By engineers, but I cannot and do not make them up myself ;)

While this is a 'recommended practice' (speed limit/10) it is not the law. the MUTCD (Manual For uniform traffic control devices - the standard for signals. There's a Federal, and then each state can have their own. Texas does.) requires minimum 3 seconds of yellow. That is it. Whether it is a 15mph trailer park road, or a 55mph state highway.
Could this get challenged in court as 'unsafe' in some locations? Possibly, but it is not specificaly 'against the law'.

There is a device in the cabinet known as a 'conflict monitor' that basically acts as a watchdog on the intersection. if the controller does anything 'against the rules', it instantly throws it in flashing red operation until someone can come look at it to see what it has done wrong. This device will throw the intersection into flash if there is less then 2.75s +/- about .15s seconds of yellow. It is known as a 'yellow clearance failure'. The reason they made it ~2.75s instead of exactly 3s is that about .15s variance depending on manufacturer, age, etc. (despite what most people think, electronics are not 100% perfect in timekeeping, especially when in harsh environments) They are supposed to be tested every year, as recommended by the manufacturers, to verify that they do in fact meet the standards. (This may be admissible in court if the monitor hasn't been tested ((Someone may shoot me for this, but MANY of them probably are not tested as recommended. (However, All the ones I maintain are.) There will/must be a paper trail on this.)))

So is there a chance it ran for < 3 seconds without going into flash? Yes. Will you be able to accurately measure it with a stopwatch, or even a 30fps video camera? (30fps is roughly one frame every 33ms, or .033 seconds) Possibly, but I wouldn't count on it.

If you find that the yellow light timing for this intersection does meet the N/S, then I wouldn’t hold out much hope for avoiding the ticket. You will need to document (video) your findings and have a reliable witness testify to the same… if you choose to contest the ticket in this fashion.



The general rules regarding yellow lights are:

(A) Drivers who can safely stop before reaching the intersection should do so when they see the light turn
yellow. They have to consider their speed and their distance from the intersection when deciding whether
or not they can safely stop. If they try to decelerate too quickly then their tires might skid dangerously or
they might get “rear ended” by a car behind them.

(B) Drivers who are too close to the intersection to safely stop should continue on at constant speed. The
yellow light should give them enough time to make it completely through the intersection before it turns
red. If the light turns from yellow to red too quickly then the car will still be in the intersection when the
light turns red and a cop might give them a ticket that’s not really their fault. It would be the fault of the
city’s traffic engineers for not setting the timing of the yellow light properly.


Good luck Sir,

Flint.

Is it an engineering defect if the car does not clear the intersection in time? Possibly, however, the engineers cannot predict every situation, and many times, construction is done without any engineering changes on the signal timing.

Engineers are expensive, lots of municipalities do not have their own, so they have to hire a contractor, and doing so for every small construction project around an intersection would delay the construction, while the contract is placed out for bid, as well as cost extra money. As long as they can certify the intersection as 'safe' during the construction, via road closures, non-contradictory indications, not modifying the actual intersection phasing (making a T into a 4-way, etc) etc, they can do construction on or around an intersection without changing it's timing.

Does an engineer normally have to look at any/all construction plans? Yes. Is it a traffic engineer? No. Generally it is a Civil Engineer.

Do I recommend a Traffic Engineer at least LOOK at an intersection before, and occasionally during construction? Absolutely. Is it required? Not Always.

So, IANAL, I do not know the laws about running yellow lights, but that is how the signal side of it relates :)

[Skiprr]

The applicable state code seems to be: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/S ... TN.544.htm; see §544.007.

But, interestingly, I don't know if this as cut-and-dried as I thought it was. I always thought you needed to be at or beyond the intersection's mid-point prior to the light turning red. Turns out there's nothing in the transportation code or the driver's handbook that says that.

Reading the statute, though, I'm still unsure. One way to read is that what matters is that you had passed the entry to the intersection, i.e., the "clearly marked stop line," or in the absence of a stop line, that you "enter[ed] the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection." However the only place a steady yellow signal is specifically addressed is §544.007(e), and it seems ambiguous. Part 1 of that says a steady yellow light means, "movement authorized by a green signal is being terminated," but there's an or followed by Part 2, "a red signal is to be given." I'd interpret Part 1 as being consistent with the DPS driver's handbook in that your green authorization is being quashed; stop now if you can safely do so. But the "or" combining Part 2 pretty much renders this useless because it simply seems advisory: "Hey, bud; a red light is comin' sometime."

I'm pretty much a stickler for following traffic laws, and actually read the most-recent version of the DPS driver's handbook every couple of years, just to stay current. I'm frankly suprised that my initial thought about this one isn't substantiated anywhere that I can find. I'm tending now to think the determinant will be if you had passed the stop line at the intersection at any time the light was still yellow. However, my common-sense neuron (only got one of those, but I try to use it regularly) says that that interpretation is inherently dangerous and supports the notion of yellow meaning "hurry up" rather than "stop now if you can safely do so."

I'll be watching to see if any of our legal eagles can give us the definitive ruling.

[txfireguy2003]

I was told in the academy (mind you NOT a traffic specific one, just general all around peace officer school) that entering the intersection on a yellow is legal. If you enter the intersection legally, then you MUST be allowed to exit it legally also. Therefore, if you were in the interstection before the light turned red, you must be allowed to leave the intersection, even after red. Additionally, if the officer was directly behind you, there is no way for her to absolutely, definitively, KNOW that you had or had not entered the intersection prior to the red light, because she cannot see your front tires. I, personally, would fight it, but as others have said, IANAL, YMMV etc.

[C-dub]

Talk about irony or maybe coincidence.

On my way home 30 minutes ago, I entered an intersection under a green light and had to wait to turn left until oncoming traffic passed. While waiting the light turned yellow. Oncoming traffic slowed for the yellow and then stopped for the red. I completed my turn, but I think the camera took my picture. It will be interesting to see if a ticket shows up in the mail. Another vehicle did not follow me through, but I did not notice if another vehicle went straight through the intersection behind me.

[boomerang]

I would fight it.

[TLE2]

I fairly sure that if you have not exited the intersection when the light turns red, you are in violation. The yellow is to allow you time to clear the intersection before red, not a "get out of ticket" yellow.

But not being a lawyer, I could also be wrong.