People who really need more training

[G.C.Montgomery]

Are you saying that older arthritic people should not be able to qualify with with a Semiauto because they are incapable of reloading or charging their weapon?

Are you saying that someone who can't qualify with a semiauto without help should get a SA license?

As long as there's a difference between SA and NSA then I think people shouldn't cheat to "pass" the SA test when they only have the skills to pass the NSA test honestly.

That is exactly what I am saying.
The ability to load Magazines or rack a slide has nothing to do with how safe someone is. If they can handle the SA safely, If they can hit the target, If they understand and can operate the controls on the gun why shouldn't they be allowed license? Are we better off letting these folks be victims?

Actually having a clear understanding and ability to demonstrate administrative tasks such as charging magazines and loading the weapon have everything to do with how safe someone is with a firearm. Racking the slide is accomplished the same way whether you are loading the firearm or reducing a stoppage. If you can't load the firearm safely, you more than likely can't safely reduce a stoppage either. And if injury or medical conditions make it impossible, you either need to wait until you've healed or consider another weapon system if the condition is permanent. As a prime example, I disqualified a shooter with carpal tunnel issues in February after she nearly shot me while trying to reduce a stoppage.

The shooter experienced an ignition failure during a single shot string. When the gun failed to fire, she tried to pull the slide to the rear using the "pinch-pull" method but her carpal tunnel issues made this difficult. In reviewing the video of the range, we learned that in her second attemp to grip the slide, she pointed the gun at left breast while trying to come over the top of the slide with her support hand but, her wrist braces were getting in the way. So then she tried the "pinch-pull" method again. Except this time, she stepped out of her booth, spun around 180-degress toward me with the gun held straight and level with her finger on the trigger. I side stepped the muzzle and immediately moved toward the shooter to take control of the gun. She partially realized her error because she lowered her muzzle but was still facing toward me and up range. Before I could get there, she lost control of the slide and I heard a muffled pop the instant before my hand landed on the gun. As I took control of the gun, I found the gun now had a stovepipe stoppage and a smoking case stuck in the ejection port. Thankfully, the only damage was a .32 cal hole in my jeans.

It is amazing how quickly things can go wrong on a range. It is also amazing to me this woman didn't grasp the magnitude of what just happened when she said, "I only put a hole in your jeans." She had been one of the ones who commented that my constant promotion of additonal training was just for Rambo wannabes. She was also one of the people who appeared to not to be paying attention when I covered administrative handling procedures and stoppage reductions in the classroom portion of the class. I signed her TR-100 but only after having her print the world FAIL in the box for the proficiency demonstration. Since she has never come to me to get another TR-100 that indicates she passed the shooting proficiency, I'm sure that she is still someone who thinks her ability to load/unload a gun has nothing to do with how safe she is now that she knows Texas law allows her to have a gun in her car so long as she's traveling.

[WildBill]

It is also amazing to me this woman didn't grasp the magnitude of what just happened when she said, "I only put a hole in your jeans."

I think that this attitude would burn me up the most.
Since you really couldn't have gotten away with beating her, you should have at least shot her with your tazer.

[seamusTX]

If someone shot me, and I was still able to function, I think at the least I would disassemble that person's weapon and throw the pieces in several directions as far as humanly possible.

But then, I'm an easy-going guy.

At the risk of prolonging an argument, I do want to point out that having physical difficulty charging magazines or operating a slide is not related to being just plain stupid and careless. No disability excuses violating the four rules.

- Jim

[G.C.Montgomery]

It is also amazing to me this woman didn't grasp the magnitude of what just happened when she said, "I only put a hole in your jeans."

I think that this attitude would burn me up the most.
Since you really couldn't have gotten away with beating her, you should have at least shot her with your tazer.

Trust me I had to restrain myself because I knew if I let myself go, any resistance she offered would have just fed the rage. I thought for a moment about tying her to a chair to keep her from hurting anyone. But then I started thinking up ways to use a hammer, a pound of 16p nails, a potato peeler, and some rubbing alcohol to more thoroughly explain my displeasure. That's when I really knew I just had to let it go and call it a day with putting a failure on her TR-100.

But the whole point lurking in that story is that if I'd let someone else rack her slide for her or load the gun for her, there's no way I'd have known that she couldn't safely operate a handgun of the type she chose to use. She might well have been better off with Beretta that had a tip-up barrel. Regardless of that, she should have recognized the magnitude of her mistake. She should have seen her in ability to fix the problem safely as an indicator she needed more training or needed to use a different piece of equipment.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

My CHL instructor invited those of us about to take his class, to a range
session to do some shooting. This was just a practice session, not a qualifier day.

One couple had a Glock 9mm, model unknown to me. The guy OK-accurate with it,
but the girlfriend could only hit the paper target with 35 of her 50
rounds. Her qualifying day target didn't look much better but I didn't have a
chance to count the 2nd day's target carefully.

A married couple that took the class together had a neighbor friend who is
some kind of federal LEO. He told them to get a Sig Sauer. So they go to
Cheaper Than Dirt Guns in Fort Worth and plunk down <$900?> for a brand new
Sig, model unknown to me. Maybe a P226.

The wife was to shoot her qualifying round before the husband. She loads a
fully charged magazine, attempts to shoot, and gets nada. No bang when she
hits the bang button. My CHL instructor intervenes, carefully takes control
of the Sig, and hits the mag release. He immediately realized why it wouldn't
fire when he dropped the mag because the bullets were pointed AT HIM instead
of the correct way.

A $900 brand new Sig and she loaded the mag backwards! It did shoot the rest
of the qualifying rounds that day, but I always wonder if she damaged something.

My CHL instructor didn't happen to tell me of anyone he failed, but he did refuse to
take a petite older lady as a customer. She wanted to sign up for the class but he said
NO when she showed him her new purchase. She had no prior handgun experience,
went to a gun show to buy something, and for some strange reason she bought a
GINORMOUS .357 revolver. The grips were for some large-handed man.

[Plato]

...When I was qualifying for my CHL the person next to me was making me very nervous with her safety measures or lack of safety!! She missed the center of the target at 5 yards and was pointing her gun every direction but down range. I got to thinking does everone pass the CHL class

Here we have 10 hours of class time and no teaching on gun safety. Not everone knows how to handle a weapon especially if they have never handled one. I realize that it is not CHL's job to teach safety but come on now; if you can't hit a target or handle a your gun properly. Don't you think it is the CHL instructors job to not issue them a passing score? It will only be a matter of time before some inocent person gets shot.

+1

While I don't want to make the CHL requirement to stiff, I have alway felt there should be more time devoted to firearms training in the mandated CHL course. As it is they just run out on the range and blast though 50 rounds and look around to make sure no body got hurt then score em and pass you on

[flynbenny]

Actually having a clear understanding and ability to demonstrate administrative tasks such as charging magazines and loading the weapon have everything to do with how safe someone is with a firearm. Racking the slide is accomplished the same way whether you are loading the firearm or reducing a stoppage. If you can't load the firearm safely, you more than likely can't safely reduce a stoppage either. And if injury or medical conditions make it impossible, you either need to wait until you've healed or consider another weapon system if the condition is permanent. As a prime example, I disqualified a shooter with carpal tunnel issues in February after she nearly shot me while trying to reduce a stoppage.

The shooter experienced an ignition failure during a single shot string. When the gun failed to fire, she tried to pull the slide to the rear using the "pinch-pull" method but her carpal tunnel issues made this difficult. In reviewing the video of the range, we learned that in her second attemp to grip the slide, she pointed the gun at left breast while trying to come over the top of the slide with her support hand but, her wrist braces were getting in the way. So then she tried the "pinch-pull" method again. Except this time, she stepped out of her booth, spun around 180-degress toward me with the gun held straight and level with her finger on the trigger. I side stepped the muzzle and immediately moved toward the shooter to take control of the gun. She partially realized her error because she lowered her muzzle but was still facing toward me and up range. Before I could get there, she lost control of the slide and I heard a muffled pop the instant before my hand landed on the gun. As I took control of the gun, I found the gun now had a stovepipe stoppage and a smoking case stuck in the ejection port. Thankfully, the only damage was a .32 cal hole in my jeans.

It is amazing how quickly things can go wrong on a range. It is also amazing to me this woman didn't grasp the magnitude of what just happened when she said, "I only put a hole in your jeans." She had been one of the ones who commented that my constant promotion of additonal training was just for Rambo wannabes. She was also one of the people who appeared to not to be paying attention when I covered administrative handling procedures and stoppage reductions in the classroom portion of the class. I signed her TR-100 but only after having her print the world FAIL in the box for the proficiency demonstration. Since she has never come to me to get another TR-100 that indicates she passed the shooting proficiency, I'm sure that she is still someone who thinks her ability to load/unload a gun has nothing to do with how safe she is now that she knows Texas law allows her to have a gun in her car so long as she's traveling.

My point exactly. If you are going to carry a weapon, you must be proficient in its administrative handling, not just marksmanship.

[Liberty]

All is lost, The day has come! Thee Bradys have won.
I never thought I would see the day when folks on a gun board would be advocates of reasonable restriction.

[TxFig]

I know many on here disagree with what I am about to say. But I firmly believe, based on me talking to many other license holders about how often they practice, tells me that the vast majority dont go back to the range after getting their license.
I go to the range at least once per month. I do this for my peace of mind that my weapons function as intended, also to teach my 16 year old how to handle firearms (He has been shooting since 10) and because I really enjoy it.

I agree many license holders need lots more practice. In my CHL class we had two women in the class that brought the weapon to the class still in the box. Both had semi autos and had no clue how to load the magazines, how to insert the mags into the weapon or how to drop the mag once all the rounds were expended. I wish the CHL instructors would make each student demonstrate the student knows how to load, unload, field strip and make a weapon safe for inspection before allowing a student to go through the class.

FWIW, . A demonstrated modicum of proficiency in weapon handling should be a requirement for class AND range passage.

+1 However I do believe that the CHL instructors may disagree. They are not there to teach the basics of gun safety. I too would like to see some type of safety verification on handling a weapon. I remember before I even handled a gun many many years ago I went to a gun safety class when I was 16. (My dad insisted) Still today I use and think of those methods I learned over 30 years ago whenever a weapon is in my hands...ya I know I am old!!!

I don't think anyone is proposing that the CHL instructors TEACH the safety. Only EVALUATE the safety. I can't think there would be too many CHL instructors that would object to that.

[TxFig]

Starts shooting from WAY too far away (50'). Can't hit a 4x4 sheet of plywood. Is laughing, having fun (more waving gun around at people). Get's firm reprimand from landowner / brother-in-law. Doesn't listen because "she's 58 and doesn't need him telling her what to do".

Someone with that kind of attitude obviously will not respond well to being called out in front of an audience, especially by an in-law.

I am tempted to ask if alcohol was involved.

No. None.

I don't know what your relationship is. If it is a friend-of-a-friend type of thing, you probably can't do anything.

I am simply good friends with the sister of the lady. I have never met the person in question.


I will add however that I told my friend (the sister of the unsafe person) about this post. She subscribed to this forum so she could lurk on this thread and read the discussion. Iow, the very good comments made here have not been in vein.

[TxFig]

How many of you would like to be required to take a another class [time/$$$] and present a "Certificate of Handgun Safety Training" to your CHL instructor before you can take the CHL class?

I used to think that was the purpose of the shooting test. To demonstrate profiency.

Then I started hearing stories about instructors "helping" students pass the test.

Just a data point. The instructor I had when took my class last June specifically told us he would not help us. And sure enough, one older lady (not the same one) had trouble and did not complete the proficiency part of the test. In our class of 12, 11 passed.

[TxFig]

All is lost, The day has come! The Bradys have won.
I never thought I would see the day when folks on a gun board would be advocates of reasonable restriction.

I have finally gotten through catching up on all of the posts of this thread (I actually read each and every one of them - not just skimming through).

I felt I need to reply to this last post. You see, prior to this discussion, I almost certainly would have sided with Liberty on this issue - that "any restrictions are too much".


I have come to realize that I was wrong.

While I still do believe that the framers of our constitution meant for the 2nd Amendment to allow for every person to own the absolutely newest technology they could buy, the era of that time must be considered. The assumption then was that back then the knowledge of one's weapons was very high - people simply did not own guns which they did not know how to use. Weapons availability in the home was a given from the time of birth so people grew up with them.

Or... to say it differently...
They didn't have 50+ yo women with zero experience or training buying a brand new, oversized (for them) gun and immediately try to use it.


Thus - I have come to the conclusion that some sort of proficiency training (which includes safety) should be a prerequisite to a CHL. NOT owning the gun itself (how else would some get that proficiency?). But to carrying it everyday - yes.

[G.C.Montgomery]

All is lost, The day has come! Thee Bradys have won.
I never thought I would see the day when folks on a gun board would be advocates of reasonable restriction.

Man, that's a great impression of Fred Sanford/Redd Foxx! I don't think any member of this forum would support the kinds of "reasonable restrictions" the Brady Bunch would inflict on us. But as an instructor, I do follow the law and the law says you have to successfully demonstrate proficiency before I sign off on the TR-100 you submit as part of your CHL application. It is almost instinctual to call those who can't pass the basic proficiency demonstration, blind idiots. But since I have seen a blind man pass the test, I realize that is an insult to the blind and I think we've discussed the idea that blindness alone shouldn't be a disqualifier. So rather than insult the blind, I'll just say those who can't pass are idiots. Scratch, that...I'm being too harsh and insenstive to idiots. Those who can't pass are not idiots. They are simply incompetent and in most cases, are not conscious of their incompetence until they fail the proficiency. We see those at instructor renewals every couple years too.

In all seriousness, I have a hard time believing you or anyone on this board wouldn't prefer that people to be proficient and competent when using things like cars, planes, chainsaws or guns with which they could kill or injure themselves, you or anyone in their immediate vicinity. That's the purpose of this discussion and the OP was simply looking for answers on how to address that issue. Now if you think that's promoting reasonable restrictions, that's your choice and you are free to think what you want. I think it's nothing more than shooters having a discussion about what to do when we see someone who is obviously incompetent and a danger to herself and everyone around her. I think TxFig came to the right place to discuss the issue. And I think nearly all of us would agree there are far too many unconsiously incompetent idiots on the the street with guns...Metro PD may have just proven that least half of the idiots may be wearing a badge. If we as a community can't talk about how to fix that without accusing each other of being against the 2nd Amendment, you can bet the Brady's will and none of us will like their solutions.

That's my $0.02 and I'm done with this thread.

[tacticool]

All is lost, The day has come! Thee Bradys have won.
I never thought I would see the day when folks on a gun board would be advocates of reasonable restriction.

[bat0man007]

that's a scary thought, some ppl are just not capable of handling a firearm safely. i had a friend who automatically assumed my hk40 was not loaded because he saw a clip sitting next to the gun, he picked it up and started waving it around like like a toy with his finger on the trigger. i myself knew the firearm was empty, but it bothers me that he didnt even check if there was a clip in the pistol, not did he rack the slide open to check for one in the chamber. i feel like it was somewhat my fault for laying it on the table next to me while playing cards ( my friend is 25 yrs old, no kids around), but i think anyone who decides to touch a gun, should atleast know how one works, and understand the dangers of a firearm, loaded or unloaded. on a side note, the only time my firearm is loaded and racked, is when its in my full control (holstered or in my hands). i do this because not everyone around me is educated on handling a firearm safely (yet).
so +1 to more training!!