ID in the home...

[seamusTX]

LEO ... are not (IMHO) setting out to just hassle people by demanding identification.

IMHO, sometimes they are.

However, I figured out a long time ago that one man can't win a fight against the system. You have to change the system.

Consider the example of Thurgood Marshall.

- Jim

[rm9792]

Why does everyone keep trying to find a loophole that isnt there? I keep seeing these scenarios but they all have the same conclusion: If you are carrying and are asked for ID by a LEO then you have to produce both. Period. Doesnt matter if you are taking a wizz in the upstairs bathroom or landing the space shuttle, carrying+asked=production. Until the law is changed it is the law and you need comply. Not carrying + not driving=can refuse if warranted (chl and/or DL). If you are unarmed then I believe PC 38.02 applies.

[KRM45]

I've been watching this thread, and thinking about the wording of the law. We all know that words have meaning, and I keep wondering about the word "demand".. "when a peace officer or magistrate demands..."

This implies to me that a peace officer or magistrate must have a leagally justifiable reason to demand identification before I am required to produce it. Take the situation where I am walking down the street with a friend of mine, and a police officer says "good afternoon guys, can I see some ID?"
Now under the law my friend (no CHL) is under no obligation to produce any form of ID, but the consensus opion here seems to be that I must now produce both TXDL and CHL... I contend that that is not right.

Now if I am driving a car, the law says I must produce my TXDL(TC521.025, or if I am lawfully arrested, detained, or a witness to a criminal offense I must give my info(PC38.02). Under those circumstances I believe they can demand id.

If I am in my home and I call the police to come take a report about a theft, criminal mischief, etc. I will provide my Id when requested, and I will say something like "do you need my CHL too?"

If I am in my home minding my own business(not violating any laws) ans an officer knocks on the door and asks for Id, I don't think I will feel obliged to hand over my DL and CHL...

One think people should understand is that police officers want to gather as much information as possible in any situation, as a result they are taught to ask for things "hey, man what are you doing here? got any id? can I see it?" These are leading questions, but they are not demands. It the person volunteers the information great. Now if they say "you stop! Give me your ID" This is a demand. It is also a detention, and they also have to have reasonable suspicion to do it...

I'm not a lawyer, but I do know that different words have different meanings, and I can gernerally tell the difference between a demand and a simple request... YMMV

[The Annoyed Man]

Why does everyone keep trying to find a loophole that isnt there?

If that was directed at me, you've completely ignored everything I've written in which I said, "I'm not one to argue with LEOs," etc. I AM NOT LOOKING FOR A LOOPHOLE. I was just intellectually curious. I don't think anyone in this thread is looking for a loophole. We're all just trying to make sure that we understand the law completely, and I find it curious that you label that as "keep trying to find a loophole."

[rm9792]

It wasnt directed at you at all. I was more generalizing all the threads with different scenarios that always end with the same answer.

[KD5NRH]

Doesnt matter if you are taking a wizz in the upstairs bathroom or landing the space shuttle, carrying+asked=production.

Actually, no. The only sites in must-notify states equipped for a shuttle landing are Lincoln Municipal Airport, Myrtle Beach International Airport, Dyess AFB and MCAS Cherry point. None are very high on the emergency sites list.

[Morgan]

To one person it's "looking for loopholes" and to another it's "trying to understand the law." They're essentially the same thing, with different motives. I choose to believe in the more innocent motive unless someone goes out of their way to ascribe the other to their actions.

[WildBill]

This is from legaldictionary.com

A demand is an emphatic claim, which presumes that no doubt exists regarding its legal force and effect. It is a request made with authority.

A legal demand is one that is made by a lawfully authorized individual and is proper as to form, time, and place.

IANAL, but I think if an LEO stops you and says "Show me some ID" that would be a legal demand.

[Target1911]

As I have posted before, I get to deal with the cops on regular basis due to my job. In most cases they "ask" for my info. Many times they ask for my ID so they can write down my info<<<<makes things much easier. But I will just about always offer my ID because it is easier for both parties. ANYTIME I hand a LEO my ID they also get my CHL.

Just 2 nights ago I followed a VERY intoxicated driver with 911 on the phone. The leo got him out of the truck them come back to talk to me. He asked for ID for info purposes and I gave him my CHL with it. He just handed it back to me wrote down my info for the witness report.

I have nothing to hide and I will always choose the easiest and most respectful route when dealing with the LEO.

[Oldgringo]

.... I have nothing to hide and I will always choose the easiest and most respectful route when dealing with the LEO.

This approach makes sense to me.

[txflyer]

My contention is that CHL laws do not apply to me on my private property even if I have a CHL. I know it may take case law to bear that out, but I firmly believe the legislature did not intend to affect the privacy of one's home when the CHL laws were enacted. And I would spend money to defend that position.

AFAIK under Texas law, if I'm not carrying and/or driving a motor vehicle in public I have no requirement to identify myself unless I am arrested (Penal code 38.02 - someone please correct me if I missed another part of the law). And am not required to provide proof of identification (unless I'm carrying or driving in public), I'm only required to provide correct information - name, address, date of birth, nothing more.

So if I'm at home and a LEO unexpectedly knocks on my door and wants me to ID myself, my response, is that I will cooperate with him to the best of my ability after I have consulted with my lawyer. LEOs are allowed to lie for investigative reasons and I don't know for a fact why he is there. In this situation I have no reason to believe him any more than he has reason to believe me. Now if I called them or expected them for some reason, the situation changes.

I'm not trying to make the LEO's life difficult, I am simply trying to make sure I don't cause myself problems later on. That comes before the ease of a LEO's job.

[seamusTX]

If a law enforcement agent of any kind, local police, DPS, or FBI, comes to your door without a warrant, you have the right to tell them that you want to meet at your lawyer's office.

It is probably a good idea to do so.

The problem is when you call them, or they come for an exigent emergency, and they ask for ID, and if you don't cooperate they invoke the Terry rule.

I know it may take case law to bear that out, ... And I would spend money to defend that position.

Twenty grand, easily. Thanks for offering.

Buenas noches.

- Jim

[Trinitite]

So if I'm at home and a LEO unexpectedly knocks on my door and wants me to ID myself, my response, is that I will cooperate with him to the best of my ability after I have consulted with my lawyer. LEOs are allowed to lie for investigative reasons and I don't know for a fact why he is there. In this situation I have no reason to believe him any more than he has reason to believe me. Now if I called them or expected them for some reason, the situation changes.

That's another benefit of having the front door intercom and CCTV camera Excaliber suggested.
http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 0&start=15
If you didn't call them and don't expect them you can protect your right to have a lawyer present.

[mgood]

So the obvious next question is this... let's say I come into my house and set my wallet down. I don't disarm. I'm in a different part of my house, and the scenario transpires.... I don't have my CHL **ON** me. But it's in the house. I do have the gun ON me.

Ok...first question...

What do you tell the cop? "I'll get my ID, it's in the other room"?

Or, "Officer, I can get you my DL as well as my concealed carry permit, they're in the other room."?

Or, "Officer, I can get you my DL as well as my concealed carry permit, they're in the other room. Just to let you know, I am carrying a firearm right now."?

What would be most prudent?

First thing I do when I come home is empty my pockets. So I don't usually have ID on me at home.
If an officer at the door asked for my ID, I'd just say, "Yeah, let me get my wallet." And I'd hand over the DL and CHL.

What do you tell the cop? "I'll get my ID, it's in the other room"?

IMHO, that is the correct answer.

But I live in a small town where it's rare for cops to ask anyone for ID unless they stop them for speeding or something. They already know who you are. They see you at the grocery store and call you by your first name, as you do them. They can probably tell you who drives nine out of ten vehicles on the street even if their owners aren't in them - before they run the plates. So ID is generally considered a formality.

[KD5NRH]

But I live in a small town where it's rare for cops to ask anyone for ID unless they stop them for speeding or something. They already know who you are.

I can always find the rookies and the unobservant long-timers on the radio; they're the ones calling in a suspicious person at my work site.

I've actually heard this conversation pretty much verbatim:
<Cop1> Got somebody acting strange over at the ____ back lot. Guy wandering around the site with a flashlight after hours, looking at the cars and buildings, trying the doorknobs.
<Cop2> 'Bout six feet tall, gray shirt, black pants?
<Cop1> That's him.
<Cop2> ____ ball cap, badge, nametag and security logo on his shirt?
<Cop1> Uh, yeah.
<Cop2> That would be the security guard.
<Cop1> Are you sure?
<Cop2> Huh?

I've also had one pull up in a brightly lit part of the lot, spotlight me while I was wearing the uniform plus a "SECURITY" reflector vest (considering that vest, he was probably seeing spots for hours) and ask if I was the security officer. He didn't like it when I refused to answer until he told me who he was. (Hey, he just had a SPD car and uniform. It could have been anybody.)