Pet peeves outdoors

[Abraham]

mr.72,

This'll be my last post on this subject. (probably to the great relief of those reading this thread...)

If you refuse to abide by the rules when on the trail on your bicycle - that's your call.

Riding fast on the trails in state parks is verboten. Period.

If you do it, you're in the wrong.

You call others rude for not getting out of your way, when you're in the wrong, is quite the paradox and makes getting the message across a challenge. Your attitude is rather one of those instances of: "Don't confuse me with the facts, when my mind is made up" and would be comical if it didn't put others at risk.

Hurt someone with your bicycle while hurtling down the trail and your liability will be dreadful.

[mr.72]

Applying your earlier logic (trail riders vs. walkers), legal != prudent.

Yes, you are absolutely right. When I am riding at night, I have a blinking red rear light (which, by the way, is not really legal in the state of Texas, but is extremely prudent) and at least a solid front light, maybe a blinking front light (definitely illegal in the state of Texas). I also never ever get on a bicycle without a helmet. I cleaned out my storage room last weekend and tossed two cracked bicycle helmets that serve as reminders of what might happen to my skull if I fail to wear a helmet.

However, just like bicycles and hikers understanding what is likely, prudent, or expected on the trail, drivers can benefit greatly from trying to understand why bicycles do what they do on the road so when they do something it is not so unexpected. I run red lights all the time on my bike. Mostly I do it in order to avoid interacting with cars. Dogmatic insistence that the "rules of the road" or the traffic laws should apply identically to all vehicles from bicycles to semi trucks doesn't make any sense. There is no way that an exposed rider on a 25 lb vehicle with less than 1 hp and a top non-coasting speed of 25 mph should be expected to adhere to the same rules as a multi-ton truck. That's irrational and illogical. Legal != prudent in all cases.

[mr.72]

If you refuse to abide by the rules when on the trail on your bicycle - that's your call.

Where did you get that idea?

You really have a chip on your shoulder against bicycles on "State Parks" trails, don't you?

You can break the rules of man but you cannot break the laws of physics.

Glad I don't ride in "State Parks". Seems the HOHAs are well-represented there.

[agbullet2k1]

Applying your earlier logic (trail riders vs. walkers), legal != prudent.

Yes, you are absolutely right. When I am riding at night, I have a blinking red rear light (which, by the way, is not really legal in the state of Texas, but is extremely prudent) and at least a solid front light, maybe a blinking front light (definitely illegal in the state of Texas). I also never ever get on a bicycle without a helmet. I cleaned out my storage room last weekend and tossed two cracked bicycle helmets that serve as reminders of what might happen do my skull if I fail to wear a helmet.

However, just like bicycles and hikers understanding what is likely, prudent, or expected on the trail, drivers can benefit greatly from trying to understand why bicycles do what they do on the road so when they do something it is not so unexpected. I run red lights all the time on my bike. Mostly I do it in order to avoid interacting with cars. Dogmatic insistence that the "rules of the road" or the traffic laws should apply identically to all vehicles from bicycles to semi trucks doesn't make any sense. There is no way that an exposed rider on a 25 lb vehicle with less than 1 hp and a top non-coasting speed of 25 mph should be expected to adhere to the same rules as a multi-ton truck. That's irrational and illogical. Legal != prudent in all cases.

Point taken. I believe there are instances where minor traffic violations are excusable, as long as they are done to maximize the safety of all involved. If I'm on my bike and riding through a semi-busy street, I'll run a stop sign assuming that there are no cars in the immediate vicinity just because I believe it is safer for all involved if I just get my butt out of the way. However, if I come to a 4-way stop that has cars waiting to go in all directions, I'll stop with the rest of the cars, and definitely wait my turn, if not more, to ensure that I don't endanger myself or others by doing something that is not expected. I also never leave without my helmet, just because I was brought up that way, and I've had way too many close calls with kids running out in front of me or low hanging branches coming out of nowhere. I can't think of any experienced rider that thinks riding on a busy road without a helmet is a good idea. Just even the sight of a helmet on a biker gives a driver the notion that the biker has some sense of safety. No helmet gives the impression of recklessness.

I believe that an experienced rider can make a good judgement call that will minimize the risk to himself and others as it relates to the following/breaking of traffic laws. Now, as for my experience the other night, the fact that a majority of them put themselves and others at risk leads me to believe that they were not experienced and therefore probably had no business riding like that at night.

Again, not all rides are like the one I witnessed. I pass one all the time (about 30-40 riders) driving to my in-laws that is very organized and blends with the road traffic very well.

[mr.72]

If I'm on my bike and riding through a semi-busy street, I'll run a stop sign assuming that there are no cars in the immediate vicinity just because I believe it is safer for all involved if I just get my butt out of the way. However, if I come to a 4-way stop that has cars waiting to go in all directions, I'll stop with the rest of the cars, and definitely wait my turn, if not more, to ensure that I don't endanger myself or others by doing something that is not expected.

That's exactly what I would do and exactly what most cyclists I know would do. This is an excellent example of what constitutes a prudent "bending" of the law in favor of safety. FWIW, most cyclists will slow down for any stop sign even if there is nobody in sight in any direction. Often times most cyclists will slow to 3-5 mph but not clip out of the pedals. I have yet to see any car slow down to less than 3-5 mph at a stop sign with nobody coming in any direction. Cars consider that a "stop" when you are in a car. Well then it's a "stop" on a bicycle too.

Anyway, every year in September a bunch of Austin cyclists (mostly mountain bikers) do a "moonlight cruise" which is a middle-of-the-night ride with no lights through most of downtown Austin. These guys are well known to not wear helmets or any proper cycling gear for this ride, which is sort of a "counter culture" type event. Sort of a protest I guess. They deliberately break a bunch of traffic laws. It's kind of like giving the finger to the city. Stupid, I know! But the idea is that mostly the only people on the roads are police. So it's sort of a dare, seeing if the police will try and give them tickets (and they do). Maybe this was an event like the one in Austin?

Sometimes cyclists band together and do stupid things to demonstrate their presence. I don't support these kinds of rides and typically most road cyclists do not (I am mostly a mountain biker although I have been riding mostly on the road for the past year or so). I think the laws need to be changed for cyclists, but this is not the way to go about it. Sort of like if all of us decided to march down Congress Avenue, wearing only underwear and a gun belt with a handgun carried openly. Yeah it'd make a point about concealed carry, but the point it would make is "we don't respect the law".

[KD5NRH]

1. no lighting is required for bicycles by law

Texas Transportation Code
551.104(b) A person may not operate a bicycle at nighttime unless the bicycle is equipped with:
(1) a lamp on the front of the bicycle that emits a white light visible from a distance of at least 500 feet in front of the bicycle; and
(2) on the rear of the bicycle:
(A) a red reflector that is:
(i) of a type approved by the department; and
(ii) visible when directly in front of lawful upper beams of motor vehicle headlamps from all distances from 50 to 300 feet to the rear of the bicycle; or
(B) a lamp that emits a red light visible from a distance of 500 feet to the rear of the bicycle.

2. Normally a group ride tries to keep the group together through traffic lights, which is obviously what they were doing, even if the light turns red. The group is sort of treated like one large vehicle in this instance.

Each bicycle is an individual vehicle, and required to obey traffic laws as such.

3. You cannot stop a bicycle very fast,

Since when? I can definitely stop my bicycle in a much shorter distance than any car I'm aware of, and a fair amount of my riding is on slick, polished concrete, not rough, high-traction asphalt. Bear in mind that the transportation code also requires that 551.104(a) requires that a bicycle be "equipped with a brake capable of making a braked wheel skid on dry, level, clean pavement."

[mr.72]

1. no lighting is required for bicycles by law

Texas Transportation Code
551.104(b) A person may not operate a bicycle at nighttime unless the bicycle is equipped with:
(1) a lamp on the front of the bicycle that emits a white light visible from a distance of at least 500 feet in front of the bicycle; and

Thanks for the correction.

3. You cannot stop a bicycle very fast,

Since when? I can definitely stop my bicycle in a much shorter distance than any car I'm aware of551.104(a) requires that a bicycle be "equipped with a brake capable of making a braked wheel skid on dry, level, clean pavement."

Skidding is not stopping.

Try stopping your bicycle and your car both from 30 mph. Or try stopping a bicycle AT ALL from 60 mph. Maybe if it's sub-40 degrees outside you can stop a bicycle from 60 mph in less than, oh, 300 to 500 feet? Lots of wrecks during bicycle races by professional cyclists who try to just slow down for a corner from 50+ mph in warm weather due to blowing tires, melting tubes, melting brake pads, breaking rims, etc. A lightweight bicycle is just not designed to stop like a car. A car will even out-stop a sport bike in most cases, and the motorcycle has far greater tire contact per lb and nearly infinitely more braking capacity (heat dissipation, pad area, pad heat resistance, etc.) than a bicycle.

Most cars will stop without any noticeable stopping distance at 15 mph, typical bicycle speed. I know my Miata will absolutely come to a dead halt with no tire smoke or rolling at all from 15mph if I just stomp my foot on the brake. It'd be a noticeable jolt to the driver but not exactly very dramatic. Try grabbing all of the brake lever on a bicycle while running 15mph and you will go over the handlebar, guaranteed. You have to modulate the brake and roll to a stop from 15mph on a bicycle.

[DoubleJ]

this thread has become my pet peeve.

no, no, no, please continue

[Oldgringo]

this thread has become my pet peeve.

no, no, no, please continue

It hasn't become my pet peeve but there sure appears to be a heap of animosity between cyclists and foot people. I hope we don't start to have peddle-by or walk-by on the paths. That would be a bummer.

[TheArmedFarmer]

It hasn't become my pet peeve but there sure appears to be a heap of animosity between cyclists and foot people. I hope we don't start to have peddle-by or walk-by on the paths. That would be a bummer.

My pet peeve is people who overuse emoticons.

(Joking!!)

[Sodbuster]

My new pet peeve is I can't figure out how in blazes ya'll copy what the other folks just said before you add your comments at the bottom. Can anyone please clue me in on that?

[boomerang]

First go outdoors. Then click the "QUOTE" button on the right above the message you want to quote. Somewhere up here ----->

[KC5AV]

My new pet peeve is I can't figure out how in blazes ya'll copy what the other folks just said before you add your comments at the bottom. Can anyone please clue me in on that?

Code: Select all

[quote="kc5av"]What the guy above you just said[/quote]

That code gives you this:

What the guy above you just said

[KD5NRH]

It'd be a noticeable jolt to the driver but not exactly very dramatic. Try grabbing all of the brake lever on a bicycle while running 15mph and you will go over the handlebar, guaranteed.

Basic physics doesn't care what you're sitting in or on; when you decelerate from 15mph to a full stop in a given distance, you will experience exactly the same forces. The force that would throw you over the handlebars will slam you into the seatbelt hard enough to hurt.

[mr.72]

It'd be a noticeable jolt to the driver but not exactly very dramatic. Try grabbing all of the brake lever on a bicycle while running 15mph and you will go over the handlebar, guaranteed.

Basic physics doesn't care what you're sitting in or on; when you decelerate from 15mph to a full stop in a given distance, you will experience exactly the same forces. The force that would throw you over the handlebars will slam you into the seatbelt hard enough to hurt.

You are right about that, except that in the case of the bicycle and the handlebars, the problem is not that your body is decelerating (well, at least, your body does not decelerate noticeably until it hits the pavement). The problem is that the front wheel is decelerating, and due to the geometry of the bicycle, the road, and your body's center of gravity, you are going over the handlebars instead of stopping.

In the case of the car, the seat belt along with the friction between your butt and the seat and other things will decelerate your body. At 15mph, I don't think there is probably enough momentum in your body to overcome the friction of your butt in the seat, but even if there is, then there is the fact that you have many fixed (fixed to the stationary car) objects against which to brace your body actively, such as your foot on the brake pedal. Now if you were standing on the hood of the car when it stopped from 15mph to zero, then you would fall down just like you would on a bicycle.