CompVest wrote: I don't believe an employer should be able to tell me I have to come to work unarmed and NOT provide the same level of protection I am capable of giving myself.
An employer can't "tell" you to come to work. Whether or not you go to work is your decision.
With attitudes like this nothing will ever change.
WildBill wrote:Since the courts have ruled that the police have no duty to protect citizens, drawing this conclusion would be a very long leap.
I do not find it hard to make that connection. We are responsible for our own protection and I can think of very few here who rely on LEO for protection. We do rely on our own abilitites. Employers who force their beliefs on their employees and disarm them with strong armed extortion like tactics should themselves suffer the consequences if their employees are injured by their direct demands.
Aygunanywhere
"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." Mike Vanderboegh
"The Smallest Minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." – Ayn Rand
CompVest wrote: I don't believe an employer should be able to tell me I have to come to work unarmed and NOT provide the same level of protection I am capable of giving myself.
An employer can't "tell" you to come to work. Whether or not you go to work is your decision.
With attitudes like this nothing will ever change. Aygunanywhere
Then, maybe things won't ever change.
BTW, what kind of protection from your employer would satisfy you? What would consider to be "the same level of protection" that you could give yourself?
Last edited by WildBill on Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
WildBill wrote:Since the courts have ruled that the police have no duty to protect citizens, drawing this conclusion would be a very long leap.
I do not find it hard to make that connection. We are responsible for our own protection and I can think of very few here who rely on LEO for protection. We do rely on our own abilitites. Employers who force their beliefs on their employees and disarm them with strong armed extortion like tactics should themselves suffer the consequences if their employees are injured by their direct demands. Aygunanywhere
Maybe you don't have a hard time making that connection, but IMO the majority of the people on a jury would. Whether or not employers using strong arm tactics will suffer consequences is out of my hands.
I do not find it hard to make that connection. We are responsible for our own protection and I can think of very few here who rely on LEO for protection. We do rely on our own abilitites. Employers who force their beliefs on their employees and disarm them with strong armed extortion like tactics should themselves suffer the consequences if their employees are injured by their direct demands.
Aygunanywhere
Here Here!
If I want to eat I have to go to work. To those that say find another job, talk to a few that have - it is not easy. Some of us do not have the luxury to quit and I don't think I should have to.
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WildBill wrote:
BTW, what kind of protection from your employer would satisfy you? What would consider to be "the same level of protection" that you could give yourself?
The issue we are discussing here is focused on employers banning posession of firearms in personal vehicles. This act reduces an individual's ability to defend themselves to and from their place of employment. It has absolutely nothing to do with protection while in the workplace. My employer allows firearms in vehicles in the parking lot. We can not bring them onto the premises.
Where in my post did you see "same level of protection"? We just want employers to not strong arm us into being defenseless when their demands in no way make the workplace safer.
Employers use the "hire at will" excuse to intrude into our personal lives way too much. What I do at home or on my way to and from work is irrelevant to how I do my job. My employer should only be concerned with my personal life or habits when it interferes with my job performance or safety.
Anygunanywhere
"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." Mike Vanderboegh
"The Smallest Minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." – Ayn Rand
There are multiple issues getting [intentionally, I think] confused here.
1. a CHL holder's right to carry <period>
2. a property owner's right to dictate what is allowed on their property, even if it is contained inside of the property of another
3. a person's rights to sole discretion over the contents of their own car, wherever it is parked
4. a person's inherent right to their own self defense
5. an employer's right to fire an employee for any reason
I am suggesting that a car is little different than any other container (including a holster) which might be used to transport a gun or any other object or item. A gun is an effective and convenient tool for self defense. Therefore the employer's dictating of "no guns" on their property, regardless of whether it is in a car or carried on one's person, interferes with the employee's more basic right to self defense while traveling to and from work, while not on the property of the employer. So while I concede that once on the property of the employer, you can be compelled to comply with the employer's property wishes by virtue of your employee aggrement, if no accommodation is made for you to safely disarm and store your gun on site, then the employer is unnecessarily impeding your exercise of your right to self defense.
I think we (we being gun owners and CHL holders) need to stop framing this as a gun rights issue. Instead it is truly and simply a property rights issue, counter to individuals' right to self defense. Your right to self defense is a basic human right, which is not superseded by the property rights of another. Your right to property, carried upon your person, including the tools necessary for your basic human rights such as self defense, should therefore not be superseded by the property rights of another.
Let's say that the property in question is not a gun, but a Bible. If an employer says I cannot carry a Bible, of any kind, even pocket sized, stuck in my sock, onto their property, or store it in my car while parked there, and do not provide me any place to store a Bible, then they are preventing me from carrying a Bible with me anywhere I go on the way to and from work as well and they are also denying me my right to free exercise to religion. Or let's say the property in question is an asthma inhaler, or eyeglasses, or some other health-critical implement. As a society, we wouldn't stand for the banning of any property which is necessary for our basic human rights, whose possession does not interfere with anyone else's rights, but we do so with guns.
anygunanywhere wrote:Where in my post did you see "same level of protection"? We just want employers to not strong arm us into being defenseless when their demands in no way make the workplace safer.
anygunanywhere wrote:Where in my post did you see "same level of protection"? We just want employers to not strong arm us into being defenseless when their demands in no way make the workplace safer.
This quote was from CompVest's post.
WildBill wrote:
anygunanywhere wrote:Where in my post did you see "same level of protection"? We just want employers to not strong arm us into being defenseless when their demands in no way make the workplace safer.
This quote was from CompVest's post.
Now that I have adequate caffeine and food intake (I overslept) I am up to speed here.
Although I can not speak for Compvest, an individual can not ever truly rely on their employer for protection in the workplace. Workplace violence is one of the leading causes of on-the-job deaths and injury. OSHA requires a "workplace violence program" to make employees feel better. It kind of reminds me of gun free zone laws because that is essentially what it is.
Me, my opinion is that my employer will not keep me safe from violence just like my employer can not keep me safe from all hazards on the job. I am responsible for my safety. I am responsible for my lost time injury earlier this year. I am responsible for my safety from violence. If I believe I am in danger I will respond accordingly. I have acted affirmatively during scenarios where my life and others were in danger from workplace hazards.
I have been the pallbearer for a friend who died on the job from an "accident". Workplace safety should be first and foremost on our minds as an issue in the next legislative session.
I am a strong supporter of all things 2A. I support everything we plan on doing. I f concessions must be made, if we focus on schools, universities, and the workplace, I can do without OC until the revolu....er-umm...next legislative session.
Anygunanywhere
"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." Mike Vanderboegh
"The Smallest Minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." – Ayn Rand
I do not find it hard to make that connection. We are responsible for our own protection and I can think of very few here who rely on LEO for protection. We do rely on our own abilitites. Employers who force their beliefs on their employees and disarm them with strong armed extortion like tactics should themselves suffer the consequences if their employees are injured by their direct demands.
Aygunanywhere
Here Here!
If I want to eat I have to go to work. To those that say find another job, talk to a few that have - it is not easy. Some of us do not have the luxury to quit and I don't think I should have to.
"If a man breaks in your house, he ain't there for iced tea." Mom & Dad.
The NRA & TSRA are a bargain; they're much cheaper than the cold, dead hands experience.
mr.72 wrote:As a society, we wouldn't stand for the banning of any property which is necessary for our basic human rights, whose possession does not interfere with anyone else's rights, but we do so with guns.
You just gave two perfect examples. Why does our society stand for requiring citizens to have to pay someone so that they can get permission to buy health-critical implements such as a pair of glasses or an asthma inhaler?
mr.72 wrote:As a society, we wouldn't stand for the banning of any property which is necessary for our basic human rights, whose possession does not interfere with anyone else's rights, but we do so with guns.
You just gave two perfect examples. Why does our society stand for requiring citizens to have to pay someone so that they can get permission to buy health-critical implements such as a pair of glasses or an asthma inhaler?
mr.72 wrote:As a society, we wouldn't stand for the banning of any property which is necessary for our basic human rights, whose possession does not interfere with anyone else's rights, but we do so with guns.
You just gave two perfect examples. Why does our society stand for requiring citizens to have to pay someone so that they can get permission to buy health-critical implements such as a pair of glasses or an asthma inhaler?
I'm afraid I don't understand this at all.
My point is that you are banned from buying or possessing an asthma inhaler unless you have a doctor who will write a prescription allowing you to buy and possess the inhaler. The doctor needs to have a license from the state so he can write the prescription. The pharmacy needs a license to buy and sell the inhaler. The pharmacist needs a license to dispense the inhaler. The drug company needs a license to buy the raw materials, make the inhaler, and then sell it.
Your possession of the asthma inhaler, critical to your health, does not interfere with anyone else's rights, but you have to get permission from the government to possess it. Our society seems to be okay with these restrictions.