CHL on The Firing Line

[Bones3]

Check out the link for an interesting post. It's very interesting how
many varied responses this has received.

url]http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/sho ... p?t=208954[/url]

[nitrogen]

Amazing.

Having been blindsided, and having lost 1/3 of my eyesight due to that attack, I would have probably responded the same way as this fellow.

When you're blindsided; your other methods of defense are severely limited.

If someone tackled my fianceé (who currently doesn't have a chl) I'd hope she'd respond the same way if legally able to carry.

[gigag04]

For our discussion purposes here's the original post:

Carry Incident help please
Ok, as all of you kow places like best buy, costco, etc all ask you to hand them a receipt so they can check and make sure they did not charge you extra for something right ? lol


Anyhow,I figured I payed for an item, and I am now the legal owner of such item. there is a line 15 deep waiting to leave. This item was a $15 cd.

So I proceed to just walk out. well, midway to my car, a guy grabs me from behind. First reaction, guard the firearm and draw.

well, as all of this goes happens, we fall to the ground. I manage to get a hold of my firearm and draw on his face. luckily I noticed their outfit, and did not fire.


So the question is, what would have u done ? Also, I'm seriosuly considering assult charges on the employee and sueing the establishment at this point.

The local PD came, and they got a laugh out of it after the situation was diffused.

[Paladin]

I don't think I would have gone to my gun in this situation, and I hope my awareness would be better than that... but if it did happen to me the security guard would have probably been in worse shape. I've been practicing martial arts for just such an occasion as someone grabbing me from behind.

[nitrogen]

I don't think I would have gone to my gun in this situation, and I hope my awareness would be better than that... but if it did happen to me the security guard would have probably been in worse shape. I've been practicing a martial arts for just such an occasion as someone grabbing me from behind.

That's an excellent thing for someone able to practice martial arts. Until my health gets better, I have to keep my exertion down.

[Paladin]

I don't think I would have gone to my gun in this situation, and I hope my awareness would be better than that... but if it did happen to me the security guard would have probably been in worse shape. I've been practicing martial arts for just such an occasion as someone grabbing me from behind.

That's an excellent thing for someone able to practice martial arts. Until my health gets better, I have to keep my exertion down.

Every person is different. And the law works on a case by case basis.

[txinvestigator]

I teach this in our Security Training classes. A person has a right to detain another person who he has REASONABLE GROUNDS to believe the person has or is attempting to steal property.

Walking out past a security point without showing your receipt to some clown is not reasonable grounds. Not only would I strongly defend myself against someone who tried to stop me in such a situation, I would file criminal charges against the person and sue the person and store.


Texas Code of Criminal Procedure
Art. 18.16. Preventing consequences of theft.

Any person has a right to prevent the consequences of theft by
seizing any personal property that has been stolen and bringing it,
with the person suspected of committing the theft, if that person can
be taken, before a magistrate for examination, or delivering the
property and the person suspected of committing the theft to a peace
officer for that purpose. To justify a seizure under this article,
there must be reasonable ground to believe the property is stolen, and
the seizure must be openly made and the proceedings had without delay.


Texas Civil Practices Act
§124.001. Detention.

A person who reasonably believes that another has stolen or is
attempting to steal property is privileged to detain that person in a
reasonable manner and for a reasonable time to investigate ownership
of the property.

The above is the legal authority a store employee has to detain a suspected shoplifter.

Below is the law if no reasonable grounds exists;


Texas Penal Code

§20.01. Definitions.

In this chapter:

(1) "Restrain" means to restrict a person's movements without
consent, so as to interfere substantially with the person's liberty,
by moving the person from one place to another or by confining the
person. Restraint is "without consent" if it is accomplished by:

(A) force, intimidation, or deception.



§20.02. Unlawful restraint.

(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or
knowingly restrains another person.

I shop a lot at Fryes, and I refuse to stop after I have paid for merchandise. Once I pay, I own the property and they have no right to restrain me.

The courts have held that if the security tag alarm activates, then they have reasonable grounds to detain me and investigate the ownership of the property.

My wife HATES going to Fryes with me.

[AOPAPilot]

I don't think I would have gone to my gun in this situation

If somebody has that big of an advantage on me that they could completely tackle me from behind I guarantee you 100% that I would be going for my handgun.

Not only would I strongly defend myself against someone who tried to stop me in such a situation, I would file criminal charges against the person and sue the person and store.

agree 100%

I do not take Assault and False Imprisonment lightly.

[JohnKSa]

Ok, I posted a reply to it.

Awaiting critiques...

[KBCraig]

Ok, I posted a reply to it.

Awaiting critiques...

Good analysis, except (4 pages later!) I'm still uncertain whether the tackle happened in TX, or MN. I'm sure the state laws differ. Regardless of state law, by commong law "New Master" was in the right.

I see that my friend mvpel waded in. He had his own experience, being accosted for legal open carry in New Hampshire.

Kevin

[rgoldy]

Folks, I will admit that I would certainly not want to be "restrained" in such a manner as described previously. I will also admit that anyone attempting to do so would probably get a muzzle stuck in his nose. On the other hand, please be understanding about the folks at the exit door of Fry's, Walmart, Sam's, etc. They are doing what they are told to do. You know and I suspect that most of them know, that making a mark on your receipt as you exit is highly unlikely to prevent or detect theft. If that worked they would not need surveillance cameras and so on. Don't take it personally. It is just another one of those little formalities of society today that waste time and effort for everyone involved. Besides, making a mark on your receipt provides employment, and I might need that job before too long.

[JohnKSa]

Well!

There was a "surprise ending" to the TFL thread...

[Flatland2D]

I didn't read the whole thread but I had to find out what the surprise ending was.

When this was first posted I thought it was a little strange that a security guard actually tackled a customer. Back when I worked at HEB I would occaisionally be one of those "shrink control" door greeters. They told us you pretty much can't do anything to a customer, not even touch them. If they set off the alarms and don't want to stop for you to check out their reciept, just let it go. The only thing those people can do is write down the license plate number of the suspicious person and give details about them to the police (if cameras later found out they had in fact stolen, or fled immediately upon setting off the alarms). A pen and paper is their only weapon. I had my share of people just walk right past me. Can't blame them though, I really don't feel like stopping either. But it was my job and what I got paid to do. Regardless of the store or company policy, I would imagine any receipt-checker would receive similar training.

[Kalrog]

I can't wait to go read what happened. Too bad work blocks that particular forum and it will have to wait until I get home.

[nitrogen]

I didn't read the whole thread but I had to find out what the surprise ending was.

When this was first posted I thought it was a little strange that a security guard actually tackled a customer. ]

I'm not suprised, even with the super secret suprise ending. (Sorry, I'm not spoiling it!)

Back in 1999, I was shopping at a Fry's Electronics in Phoenix. I, like the poster in that TFL thread, never stop for the reciept police. This one time, one of the reciept brigade chased me down, and blocked me from backing my car out.
I called the Phoenix police (I had no idea it was a Fry's Employee, I thought it was some random idiot) and they were there within 30 seconds. The reciept-police guy got a major talking to at the time.