Dog shot in city park

[flintknapper]

One problem I have with your argument is you are not applying your standards equally to both sides. You claim the dog is good natured, has never had a problem, been at the park and never attacked any other kids or animals, so why would he all of a sudden attack some children which would be out of character for the dog.
I think you need to apply that same standard to the officer.

I feel as if I have applied that standard. But we can discuss it if you like. I have to warn you...it is a double edged sword.

Why would an officer of the law who has never exhibited bad behavior in the community, been an outstanding member of the community, has been in parks before with no history of shooting dogs or animals, all of a sudden do something that is completely out of character for him? I am sure the officer has a few more years on this planet exhibiting good character than the dog has.

Remember the numerous posts informing us that in many cases there was no prior warning that an animal would be aggressive. Oh wait....there is one right below this response. I am willing to apply the previous "good behavior" record as something to be weighed and considered, if you will allow that people (like animals) sometimes do things we do not expect of them, often things we have never witnessed them do before. I mean....if its good the the goose, it should be good for the gander, right?

Recent media history is full of examples of Cops that were great cops right until they killed their wives, Catholic Priests that seemed to be great servants of God..right up until they started molesting children, Husbands that seemed to be stable and trustworthy providers...right up to the time they cheated on their wives, emptied the bank account and moved out. Do I need to go on! That "double edged sword" of "there is a first time for everything" seems to fit humans better than it does the dogs, huh?

Not to mention we have absolutely no idea how Officer Alexander has acted in the past (under similar circumstances) since most likely his children have not been approached by a dog, in other words he probably hasn't been tested. In the case of the dogs we DO know they have frequently roamed freely in certain parts of the park with no problem. So to me your comparison rings a bit hollow.

You might want to watch a few episodes of when animals attack. I think you would be surprised at the number of family pets that never showed aggression that ended up attacking their owners or others.

I've seen a few. Quite frightening...some of them. Of course...we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that these attacks represent a minuscule percentage of the pets/animals owned and kept by people. Certainly...that number (of pets), would reach into tens of millions if not hundreds of million. Naturally, anything with teeth "can" bite, but let us keep the attacks in perspective.

I would say the chances of the dog acting out of character are far greater then the officer acting out of character and shooting a dog who was no threat to him or his children

I'd say that too (as written). Plainly the officer considered the dog a threat. I certainly don't think he is going around shooting dogs that he DOESN'T think are threating him. My question all along has been was it a reasonable "perception". The reason I want to know this is not for the sake of the dog. I like dogs....but I don't value them above humans or even human safety. I do put high value on humans though...and we have a situation here where an officer discharged a weapon in a public and populated park setting. By some accounts it occurred on a sidewalk, others suggest not...but all agree there were other people present. This is potentially a serious matter.

If it were "clearly" necessary...then great, the risk is worth it. Its just that certain unanswered questions and conflicting statements leave me wondering if other peoples safety was jeopardized by a "possible" hasty decision. I would think it natural to want to "look into that".

The bottom line for me is this:

Dog really was aggressive (for whatever reason), was close to children (pretty much established), officer is semi familiar with dogs, and not overly afraid of them, Dog really is growling or displaying other unmistakable signs, kids are not in a position to retreat and are in great fear, etc... Any decent combination of these things and heck yeah, good shoot! In fact, you'd have to beat me to the draw if I had been there.

Conversely, if the man doesn't own dogs, doesn't know dogs, has a fear of dogs, has had a bad experience with dogs, kids are afraid of dogs, has a support group that as a whole doesn't like dogs (or certain types), then I can very easily see a mistake being made if a dog approached his kids. In which case... I say we might have a "hasty" shoot (consistent with the dog owners perception).

So I leave it to each person to consider the sum of what we know (which isn't much) and glean from it what you will. My main concern is that we learn from it. We will only learn from it by talking about it. Seems to be a real resistance here by some for anyone to challenge or question the officers perception or statement. I have the greatest respect for LEO, but reserve the right as a tax paying citizen to ask simple questions about events that could have the potential for taking other human life.

So, if it means I get grilled for being curious, for having questions and doubts (for good reason) then so be it, fire up the coals!

I'll bring the marshmellows!

[WildBill]

So, if it means I get grilled for being curious, for having questions and doubts (for good reason) then so be it, fire up the coals!

I'll bring the marshmellows!

And I'll bring the skewers!

[flintknapper]

Edit

[flintknapper]

So, if it means I get grilled for being curious, for having questions and doubts (for good reason) then so be it, fire up the coals!

I'll bring the marshmellows!

And I'll bring the skewers!

For me, the marshmellows, or both?

If for me....I'm a pretty big boy, so bring some sturdy ones.

Of course, you could "quarter" me up. Ouch!

[mr.72]

The bottom line for me is this:

Dog really was aggressive (for whatever reason), was close to children (pretty much established), officer is semi familiar with dogs, and not overly afraid of them, Dog really is growling or displaying other unmistakable signs, kids are not in a position to retreat and are in great fear, etc...

Funny how this is also the one and only witness's account of the story goes, and this is normal and reasonable to expect as the probable cause of the officer shooting the dog, and this weighs in as normal and expected from every angle you look at it.

Conversely, if the man doesn't own dogs, doesn't know dogs, has a fear of dogs, has had a bad experience with dogs, kids are afraid of dogs, has a support group that as a whole doesn't like dogs (or certain types), then I can very easily see a mistake being made if a dog approached his kids

While this is almost completely ridiculous and only exists as a likely description of reality in your imagination.

[flintknapper]

The bottom line for me is this:

Dog really was aggressive (for whatever reason), was close to children (pretty much established), officer is semi familiar with dogs, and not overly afraid of them, Dog really is growling or displaying other unmistakable signs, kids are not in a position to retreat and are in great fear, etc...

Funny how this is also the one and only witness's account of the story goes, and this is normal and reasonable to expect as the probable cause of the officer shooting the dog, and this weighs in as normal and expected from every angle you look at it.

Conversely, if the man doesn't own dogs, doesn't know dogs, has a fear of dogs, has had a bad experience with dogs, kids are afraid of dogs, has a support group that as a whole doesn't like dogs (or certain types), then I can very easily see a mistake being made if a dog approached his kids

While this is almost completely ridiculous and only exists as a likely description of reality in your imagination.

With all due respect, you really have your head in the sand if you don't think there are people out there that:

Are terrified/afraid of dogs.
Harbor a hate for certain types of dogs.
Don't own dogs, and know little about them (except they are scary).
Have children that are afraid of dogs.
Immediately retreat or go on the defensive when a dog approaches (regardless of posture).
Perhaps work in a profession that increases the likelihood he/she will encounter a dog being protective of its master, property or premises.
Perhaps work in a profession that has provided him/her with training in how to deal with large dogs.
Has had a negative experience with a dog, and now regards ALL dogs of a certain breed or size to be a certain threat.

You honestly don't believe there are people like that? You don't think these feelings would influence how a person reacts if approached by a dog?

Now...I am not accusing Officer Alexander of having any of these views/feelings. I do not know the man. He might have a backyard full of dogs, his kids might roll and play with them every afternoon, he might be volunteering his time at the local animal shelter...its even possible he has forgotten more about dogs than I have ever known. I don't know.

But one thing I DO know is that he discharged a firearm in public/populated/park setting and that someone could have been seriously injured or killed because of that action. Sorry, but I believe that it is the duty of the Police dept., the city, and the public... to determine if this was reasonable and necessary.

The police dept had this incident as a "nearly closed" case about as fast the story first appeared, I pretty much expect that of the "thin blue line". The university stated it will be looking into this and the city suggested they will too. I will not hold my breath.

There simply does not exist enough evidence (or witnesses) in this event to point one way or the other. It is very much He said, She said. The officer will not offer any more testimony in this case, that is certain....so we are never going to be able to scrutinize it further.

It disturbs me to some degree that so few are willing to question these actions in order to confirm they were reasonable and immediately necessary. Conversely, it disturbs some folks here that I would have the audacity to question the actions of an LEO, a well liked and respected man in his community. I guess the idea is that he is incapable of making mistakes. The consequences of making a mistake writing a ticket are small, a mistake made when firing a weapon could be devastating.

So...yes folks, I still have questions and lots of marshmellows left.

Plus, I woke up a little "snarly" this morning...so I won't be going to the park today.

[Mr.Scott]

I want to know what he was carrying (caliber) when he shot the dog. He hit the dog in the head, at near distance and the dog did not die?

On a side note, when I read this story I think of the National Park System gun ban, because I can see the same situation happening there. Guy goes to Yosemite and get's out of car to take picture of buffaloes eating on side of road. Buffalo get's irritated that tourists are around, and buffalo makes a false charge at tourist to assert his space. Tourist construes false charge as an attack, pulls out gun and proceeds to shoot buffalo.

The problem we have is that most people aren't animal biologists and understand animal behavior. In this article, the guy saw that the dog was a pit pull and automatically assumed that it was viscous and threatening. Would he have done the same if the dog was poodle or beagle, or any other breed? Was the dog truly trying to attack his kids, or was he just being curious. I think there are so many better ways for dealing with dogs rather than using a gun. This is an unfortunate case. There is no convincing evidence that the dog was being agressive to this mans kids. His innocence seems to be based on the fact that the dog did get close to his family. Two facts seemed to have sealed the deal, the dog was a pitbull, and the dog got in close proximity to his family.

I fully support drawing a weapon to put down any threat to one's self or family, in the face of an attacker (be it human or dog). But this story just doesn't seem "convincing" that anyone's life was being threatened.

You are using the Anti- logic here. You are using wild assumptions. Do you think a standard caliber handgun, ie 9mm, .38sp, .40SW or .45ACP is going to take down a full size bison?
As far as the shooting, when in a situation presented to you you have to weigh all the information you have at the time:
1. Unleashed Dog.
2. Dog is a pit bull
3. Pit bulls are known as aggressive animals
4. Aggressive breed of dog is approaching your child.

Now sit back and put this all into consideration thinking that YOUR child is the one in danger. You're a liar if you say you'll wait and see what it does to your kid.
I would shoot the dog and live on knowing that my kid is safe and not worry about someone dumb enough to let their animal roam without a leash. I can not fathom how people can side on the side of people that break the law and end up getting bit in the butt for it.
How many times do we hear reports about someones pit bull "that was the sweetest dog ever" that attacked a child or a person for no apparent reason. It happens. And it can not be ignored when faced with one of them squaring off with your kid.
If it was a Taco Bell dog, you could easily stop it's attack as you can pick it up with one hand, but a 100lb pit bull is all muscle and is capable of killing an adult.

[Mr.Scott]

With all due respect, you really have your head in the sand if you don't think there are people out there that:

Are terrified/afraid of dogs.
Harbor a hate for certain types of dogs.
Don't own dogs, and know little about them (except they are scary).
Have children that are afraid of dogs.
Immediately retreat or go on the defensive when a dog approaches (regardless of posture).
Perhaps work in a profession that increases the likelihood he/she will encounter a dog being protective of its master, property or premises.
Perhaps work in a profession that has provided him/her with training in how to deal with large dogs.
Has had a negative experience with a dog, and now regards ALL dogs of a certain breed or size to be a certain threat.

You honestly don't believe there are people like that? You don't think these feelings would influence how a person reacts if approached by a dog?

With all due respect, you really have to have your head in the sand if you don't think that there are people out there that:

Care more about their dogs than they do people
Own dogs but don't take proper care of them including leashing them.
Immediately stick their hand out to pet a strange dog knowing nothing about it
Hasn't had a negative experience with a dog (yet)
Think everything a police officer does, be it on the job or in his personal life is because he is on a power trip and is just a retard that doesn't care about anyone else but himself and his own self centered interests.

All I can say is I won't be going to the park because they took down all the playground equipment my kids liked because they were to dangerous but that's another story.

[mr.72]

With all due respect, you really have your head in the sand if you don't think there are people out there that:

I never said it is not POSSIBLE that there are people like this, just that it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY in this case, that this is one of those people, given the evidence and the circumstances. Sheesh!!

Not everyone who shoots a dog does so out of terror or ignorance about dogs!!

Now...I am not accusing Officer Alexander of having any of these views/feelings.

of course you are, this is the basis of your argument.

But one thing I DO know is that he discharged a firearm in public/populated/park setting and that someone could have been seriously injured or killed because of that action. Sorry, but I believe that it is the duty of the Police dept., the city, and the public... to determine if this was reasonable and necessary.

THEY DID! That's why the guy has not been charged. But just because they didn't assume that the dude had some undue hatred or fear of dogs instead of actually listening to his reasonable testimony, we have 14+ pages of you throwing garbage at the man.

There simply does not exist enough evidence (or witnesses) in this event to point one way or the other.

What? That's the thing. The officer is enough of a witness, the evidence supports his story, and there is no indication that he is a crazed anti-dog nut, so that's the end of the story.

[flintknapper]

With all due respect, you really have to have your head in the sand if you don't think that there are people out there that:
Care more about their dogs than they do people

Yes, I am aware of this. Do you think I am one of these people?

Own dogs but don't take proper care of them including leashing them.

There are people who are poor stewards of their pets/animals in many respects, yes.

Immediately stick their hand out to pet a strange dog knowing nothing about it

I don't know about immediately, but I have done this many hundreds of times. Still have both hands, never been bitten. Either I am a fool, or a reasonable judge of dogs, I will not ask your opinion.

Hasn't had a negative experience with a dog (yet)

You would have to define "negative" for me, but you seem to be suggesting that a bad experience is a virtual certainty and only a matter of time.

Think everything a police officer does, be it on the job or in his personal life is because he is on a power trip and is just a retard that doesn't care about anyone else but himself and his own self centered interests.

There are people with this viewpoint. Of course, it is incorrect....and I hope you don't think that this is MY view of things.

All I can say is I won't be going to the park because they took down all the playground equipment my kids liked because they were to dangerous but that's another story

O.K.........

[austin]

My SIL had an incident like this occur just a few weeks ago.

The dog ( a pit) got loose from its owner and crossed the park and attacked her dogs while she was walking them. The attack was silent, sudden, and vicious - there was NO WARNING.

Her son was next to her dogs and was knocked down during the attack.

My BIL kicked the dog so hard it lifted the dog off the ground - he had to kick it several times to cause it to stop. The dog then went for him but the owner grabbed the leash before the dog could attack him.

I did deploy my folder and would have used it on the dog had it attacked my BIL or gotten a good hold on their dogs Since this was an NPE non-reprocial community, I did not have my pistol on me.

Had this been Texas I would have shot the dog on the spot and it would have been a good shoot.

I've talked with enough Police Officers to know what they have seen or heard pits doing and I applaud this man for what he did.

Better safe than sorry when it comes to dogs and kids. If a dog so much as looks sideways at my kid, that dog is a marked mutt.

[srothstein]

There simply does not exist enough evidence (or witnesses) in this event to point one way or the other. It is very much He said, She said. The officer will not offer any more testimony in this case, that is certain....so we are never going to be able to scrutinize it further.

Well, I would think that if you are correct about it being a he said/she said type case (I don't agree but will so stipulate for the time being), then the police did the exactly correct thing by closing the case.

After all, we operate on the principle of innocent until proven guilty. If there is not enough evidence to prove the officer did something wrong, he was innocent. Right?

[KBCraig]

Here's an unrelated blog from a Fort Worth cop, dealing with pits.

http://cowtowncop.blogspot.com/2008/08/good-dog.html

[flintknapper]

My SIL had an incident like this occur just a few weeks ago.

The dog ( a pit) got loose from its owner and crossed the park and attacked her dogs while she was walking them. The attack was silent, sudden, and vicious - there was NO WARNING.

The dog in the park was not really a "pit" but a pit mix, looks more boxer to me, but that has no bearing on your account. Stories are fairly numerous about other dogs being attacked by pit-like breeds (happens fairly often with several breeds actually). I am not surprised to hear of this, "some" pits are animal aggressive, no doubt about that.

Her son was next to her dogs and was knocked down during the attack.

A bad position to be in and a real cause for concern.

My BIL kicked the dog so hard it lifted the dog off the ground - he had to kick it several times to cause it to stop. The dog then went for him but the owner grabbed the leash before the dog could attack him.

Good for your BIL, I would be trying to boot the dog into space also. The advance on the BIL must have been half-hearted though, no way the owner would get the leash in time if the dog really wanted him. Doesn't matter though, the dog had clearly displayed it's intent.

I did deploy my folder and would have used it on the dog had it attacked my BIL or gotten a good hold on their dogs Since this was an NPE non-reprocial community, I did not have my pistol on me.

Smart thinking and good reaction.

Had this been Texas I would have shot the dog on the spot and it would have been a good shoot.

Yes it would.

I've talked with enough Police Officers to know what they have seen or heard pits doing and I applaud this man for what he did.

And I have my suspicions that this type of banter between officers only fosters "bias confirmation" and may even predispose them to a certain course of action.

Better safe than sorry when it comes to dogs and kids. If a dog so much as looks sideways at my kid, that dog is a marked mutt.

Well....I will reserve any comment on this one, except to say I consider it hasty and unreasonable.

Thank you, though... for sharing the account. Maybe with each story we read, some small point may be gleaned that will benefit us in the future if ever we experience something similar.

[WildBill]

Maybe with each story we read, some small point may be gleaned that will benefit us in the future if ever we experience something similar.

Hopefully we won't have to read any more stories. Don't you need to take your dog out for a walk?
Please, wake me when something new happens.