No CHL and traffic stop while carrying in vehicle.

[mr.72]

Personally I agree with Elvis. Okay I realize that I am opening myself up to flame bait as before, but I believe in showing the officer the common courtesy of presenting the CHL.

You mean to present your license, as required by law, when asked for identification. This is not courtesy, it is the law, if you are carrying:

GC 9411.205. DISPLAYING LICENSE; PENALTY. (a) If a license
holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person
when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder
display identification, the license holder shall display both the license
holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the
department and the license holder's handgun license. A person who
fails or refuses to display the license and identification as required by
this subsection is subject to suspension of the person's license as
provided by Section 411.187.

However, it does not say you have to disclose, without challenge, that you actually are carrying a gun...

GC $411.207. AUTHORITY OF PEACE OFFICER TO DISARM.
A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the
officer's official duties may disarm a license holder at any time the
officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the
license holder, officer, or another individual. The peace officer shall
return the handgun to the license holder before discharging the license
holder from the scene if the officer determines that the license holder
is not a threat to the officer, license holder, or another individual and if
the license holder has not violated any provision of this subchapter or
committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the license
holder.

Maybe someone can set me straight here but it appears to me that one does not have to disclose that they have a gun when on a traffic stop, whether they have a CHL or not. However if you have a CHL and you are carrying, then you have to produce your CHL, and production of your CHL presumes you are carrying and would probably reasonably constitute disclosure that you are carrying. If you are carrying in your car and do not have a CHL, you do not have to notify the officer at all, and in fact I think unless you are not concealing the gun, or you intend to try and use it, you do yourself no good to disclose you are carrying. if they are going to search your car for any reason and find it, then you are already in handcuffs so they are not going to shoot you because they found a gun in your car.

Yes I understand the debate about whether or not we should need to present if one is not carrying,

What's the debate? It's not required by law and does no good purpose.

It is out of respect for the officer that I will present my CHL, whether I need to or not. He doesn't know me from Adam, nor does he know anyone else. He does not know how an individual will react to him. Put him at ease the best you can, out of respect. The issue in presenting the CHL is not an issue of fairness, or what I have a legal "right" to do under the law. It is simple respect for the officer and his duty.

On the contrary, I think Elvis has made it clear that at least for some officers, notifying them that you are carrying is going to put them on the defensive immediately and would elevate the risk level on any traffic stop. That's because you are telling them you are a "man with gun" which to some LEOs may be synonymous with "man trying to shoot me". You may think that you are setting them at ease because in your mind, one with a CHL is an affirmed law-abiding citizen but perhaps some law enforcement officers may think that anyone carrying a gun is not a law-abiding citizen, or the only safe citizen is a disarmed citizen.

Especially if you do not have a CHL, I think you are foolish to notify the officer you are carrying in your car. If you exit your car and must submit to a search, then you should tell them you are armed and allow them to disarm you since you are leaving your car with the weapon and you don't want them to be surprised. But while I am waiting for my plastic to arrive in the mail, if I am carrying in my car and get stopped then the quickest way for me to escalate the stop is for me to say "officer, I have something to tell you. I have a gun in the car. It's in the console." I think it'd be far better to just act normal and get the stop over with and do not escalate it unnecessarily.

As long as there are cops driving who automatically escalate the situation once they are made aware of a gun in the citizen's car, it can only do harm to disclose that you are carrying in the car.

BTW, there is no reason for a police officer to detect the presence of your gun in your car, unless you are already under arrest or under suspicion.

[flintknapper]

Flint how do you propose we should treat someone with a gun. Run back to the car and leave? Stand there and hope for the best? Beg that they don't hurt us? I am quite capable of handling my safety and I understand the challenges of my job, I have been in a shooting and I have taken another persons life. I don't want to do that again but I will not allow anyone's arrogance about my safety to prevent me from going home at the end of my shift. Your statement is lost on me.

Yes Sir, I was afraid of that.

[anygunanywhere]

If it is common courtesy to always inform LEO when you are packing then it is common courtesy for LEO to always inform one and all when they are packing. Always. Courtesy begets courtesy.

The way it ought to be is I carry what ever I want where ever I want when ever I want up to the point where another private citizen's rights start and it is not any one's business that I do so. LEO, officers of the state, need to have reasonable suspicion and probable cause to inquire about my business unless I have done something to deserve their attention. If I am stopped for a traffic offense or jaywalking or spitting on the sidewalk my having a concealed weapon is of no concern since it has no bearing on the stop.

Anygunanywhere

[WildBill]

An on a different note, I think we may have a difference of opinion on the law. You said in one post that a person with a CHL is always carrying underr the authority of the CHL when the pistol is on or about his person. This, IMHO, is clearly not the case if they are in a car, even if the gun is in a hip holster. As I understand it, a CHL only gives authority when the carrying would otherwise be illegal. Since the law was changed and it is no longer a violation of PC 46.02 to carry in a car, the CHL is not giving authority until they step out of the car. This may be a serious legal question if they are driving into a parking lot that is posted for 30.06. That law only applies when carrying under the authority of a CHL.

I would like to hear some more on this. Good stuff.

I agree with Steve on this point. If you followed the same logic to the extreme you couldn't open carry on your own property because you have a CHL.

[Charles L. Cotton]

"Man with a gun" shouldn't be suprised if they find themselves staring down the barrel of my gun if I detect the presence of your gun and you didn't think it was important to let me know you were carrying, legal or not. It is a self correcting problem.

Prior to CHL (1995) and prior to legal car-carry (2007) this policy was reasonable. (It was never my policy during my 14 years as a police officer.) But if you are serious about this comment, perhaps you should reconsider. Pulling a gun on a citizen for that which is not against the law is a very risky policy, whether it's a personal policy or a departmental policy.

Chas.

[Elvis]

OK it’s a new day and I finally got some sleep so let me attempt to correct some of the mis-understandings some of you are getting from my earlier posts. First I would like to Thank Mr. Cotton for allowing us the opportunity to discuss these topics and I enjoy a healthy and productive debate. Many of you seem to be reading my statements and picking out small portions that you don’t agree with and that is fine but try and absorb the overall points I am attempting to make. I am a Cop and the head of a small agency and yes it can be a tough area. I am a Father, Husband, Texan, Christian, American, CHL Holder, NRA/TSRA Member, Gun Owner, LEO Firearms Instructor, LEO Academy Instructor and you will find no one more concerned and considerate about the rights of the citizens of this Great State. I am new to this forum but not new to the issues you all care so passionately about. I am a CHL Instructor with over 3000 students attending my classes. I believe strongly in the rights of everyone to be able to legally defend themselves and have no sympathy for those that would prey upon us our families.

Now that you know a little bit about me go back and re-read this entire thread. The topic started off discussing the disparity regarding why CHL holders have to display their license and non-CHL holders do not. I am in agreement that this disparity is not FAIR. I expect the Legislators will address this issue and all will this will be taken care of. For now the law is that you must display your CHL when asked for ID and I think that is in the best interest of everyone involved. I attempted to give you a perspective of what LEO’s have to deal with on a daily basis. I have been accused of having a chip on my shoulder. Well I have been to too many Officers funerals in my career and that tends to do that to a person. Some here think I and other Officers will “Freak Out” if you tell me you have a gun. Any prudent Officer will assume that everyone we come into contact with is armed and has the ability to harm us UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE. My advise here has been prove you do not have the intention to harm the Officer by letting him know you are one of the “Good Guys” by displaying your CHL. It appears to me that some of you have had unfortunate contacts with Officers and for that I am truly saddened. Some of you may have been disarmed for no reason other than your status as a CHL holder and that is wrong. I can understand you not wanting to notify an Officer that you are armed in an attempt to prevent the Officer from disarming you and that can put a chip on your shoulder. I have heard the horror stories from my students and know Officers make bad judgments regarding your rights as a CHL holder. Trust me Officer Rothstein and I will attempt to correct that problem from our end. My purpose in posting here is to try and get the CHL holder to approach contact with law enforcement in a positive and safe manner.
I will continue to participate here as long as you will allow me and I look forward to many more healthy debates. One thing this thread has got me thinking about is Officer Rothstein’s point about when we carry under authority of the CHL and when we do not. Hmm going to have to do some research on that one…Elvis

[Elvis]

"Man with a gun" shouldn't be suprised if they find themselves staring down the barrel of my gun if I detect the presence of your gun and you didn't think it was important to let me know you were carrying, legal or not. It is a self correcting problem.

Prior to CHL (1995) and prior to legal car-carry (2007) this policy was reasonable. (It was never my policy during my 14 years as a police officer.) But if you are serious about this comment, perhaps you should reconsider. Pulling a gun on a citizen for that which is not against the law is a very risky policy, whether it's a personal policy or a departmental policy.

Chas.

Not my policy either sir. Merely a poor attempt to wake up those here at the possibility they will run into "Officer Bubba". I am finding out your participants in this forum do not scare easily!

[Charles L. Cotton]

The issue about whinning that because you have a CHL and are required to display your license and other citizens that do not have a CHL are not required to is really lost on me. How difficult is it to notify the Officer that you are carrying a handgun and why is this such a big deal for some.

As I stated, and as the majority of others have stated, I would continue to show my CHL to any officer who asked for an ID, even if the requirement to present a CHL is repealed. My only complaint is that subjecting someone to a suspension of their CHL on the first offense, and a Class B Misdemeanor on the second offense is unwarranted. I know of no person who has intentionally failed to present a CHL when required. I do know of several who were nervous about a traffic stop and simply forgot. It is wrong for these people to be punished for failing to do an act that does not accomplish the stated goal of improving officer safety.

Chas.

[texasmr2]

I don't see what the fuss is. 9 times out of 10 an officer is going to ask if you have any weapons in the car.

I have never been asked that in my 28yr's of driving but maybe that's because I am respectful, courteous and do not drive or act like a fool. When an officer run's your tag, before they pull you over, they can get a sense of that person's attitude or persona but that is just my outlook.

what is my responsibility to show ID not in a traffic stop??

If you have nothing to hide why should it be an issue?

Also concerning the Game Warden issue one must realize that in Texas there is no other law enforcement officer, except maybe a Texas Ranger save the research, that has the authority of a Game Warden. Quick scenario to use as an example oky doky, a good friend of mine who is about to graduate with a degree in 'law enforcement'' told me this story about one of his professor's who is ex-CIA.

The story went like this, the professor was an active CIA agent at the time and took his young son fishing. After being observed by a TGW that said TGW decided to do a fishing license check on him. The CIA agent did NOT have a fishing license but decided he would hand his CIA ID card to the TGW along with his license expecting some sort of courtesy and was shocked and shot down by the reply he recieved. I was told the TGW told the CIA agent "son that license dont mean crap to me" and proceeded to write a ticket for fishing without a valid license.

[WildBill]

The issue about whinning that because you have a CHL and are required to display your license and other citizens that do not have a CHL are not required to is really lost on me. How difficult is it to notify the Officer that you are carrying a handgun and why is this such a big deal for some.

I do not whine about complying with the law and the Officer should not whine when citizens comply with the law. I am not a mind reader so I do not know if you wish to be informed about a weapon or if you want me to be quiet so you can concentrate on your surroundings. If the Officer wants a certain behavior, they can ask. I am not arrogant in regards to the Officer's safety. My own personal safety is just as important to me as the Officer's safety is to him. Remember that a CHL holder is a lot more likely to tell you the truth about having a handgun in the car or on their person.

It is not difficult to notify the Officer that I am carrying a handgun, but whether or not it is difficult or "a big deal" is irrelevant. During an encounter with the Officer I am expected to obey the law, not to be familar with the departmental policies and training of the many law enforcement agencies or the personal preferences of the Officer. The Officer pulls over drivers every day. On the average, I will be stopped once every three years, so a normal traffic stop is an unusual and stressful situation for me. I have been trained to let the Officer control the situation and have him or her ask the questions or issue instructions on how to proceed during the traffic stop. If the Officer is so concerned about armed citizens they can be proactive and ask that question immediately.

If I am not armed, I see no reason to give the Officer my CHL. My CHL is not [unfortunately] a Get-Out-Of-Jail Free Card. To assume that it is, is presumptuous - the same as showing the game warden my CIA credentials.

[boomerang]

An on a different note, I think we may have a difference of opinion on the law. You said in one post that a person with a CHL is always carrying underr the authority of the CHL when the pistol is on or about his person. This, IMHO, is clearly not the case if they are in a car, even if the gun is in a hip holster. As I understand it, a CHL only gives authority when the carrying would otherwise be illegal. Since the law was changed and it is no longer a violation of PC 46.02 to carry in a car, the CHL is not giving authority until they step out of the car. This may be a serious legal question if they are driving into a parking lot that is posted for 30.06. That law only applies when carrying under the authority of a CHL.

I would like to hear some more on this. Good stuff.

I agree with Steve on this point. If you followed the same logic to the extreme you couldn't open carry on your own property because you have a CHL.

[DoubleJ]

I think it is common sense and to let the officer know the status of an item that has the potential to harm you, him and others.

It's not the item that can harm you, it's the person in the car wielding it.

[AJSully421]

I am finding out your participants in this forum do not scare easily!

That's because some of us have stared down the barrel of a gun, have dodged bullets, and don't have a CHL just for kicks, but because something has happened that has taught us that despite LEO's best efforts, they cannot be everywhere at once, and most often show up in time to scrape bodies off the street and fill out reports. Well, i want the bodies in the streets to be from my Glock 10mm, and the reports to be of a clean shoot by me.

[Elvis]

An on a different note, I think we may have a difference of opinion on the law. You said in one post that a person with a CHL is always carrying underr the authority of the CHL when the pistol is on or about his person. This, IMHO, is clearly not the case if they are in a car, even if the gun is in a hip holster. As I understand it, a CHL only gives authority when the carrying would otherwise be illegal. Since the law was changed and it is no longer a violation of PC 46.02 to carry in a car, the CHL is not giving authority until they step out of the car. This may be a serious legal question if they are driving into a parking lot that is posted for 30.06. That law only applies when carrying under the authority of a CHL.

As proof that you CAN choose which authority you are carrying under, consider the cops who also have CHL's (it gets them through the NICS check for one thing). Which authority to carry are they using?

Now, I have to admit that the the law about showing us your CHL does not specify just when under the authority of your CHL. If that is what you meant (and it was in that context), the law is explicit that it applies if you have a CHL and a pistol on or about your person. It says nothing about authority. If I have a peace officer's license and badge, and a CHL, I would still be bound to show the CHL, even as i tell them i am also a cop.

Then are you saying there is no requirement for a CHL holder to notify the Officer if they are carrying in their vehicle because they now fall under the exception in 46.02?

[lunchbox]

An on a different note, I think we may have a difference of opinion on the law. You said in one post that a person with a CHL is always carrying underr the authority of the CHL when the pistol is on or about his person. This, IMHO, is clearly not the case if they are in a car, even if the gun is in a hip holster. As I understand it, a CHL only gives authority when the carrying would otherwise be illegal. Since the law was changed and it is no longer a violation of PC 46.02 to carry in a car, the CHL is not giving authority until they step out of the car. This may be a serious legal question if they are driving into a parking lot that is posted for 30.06. That law only applies when carrying under the authority of a CHL.

As proof that you CAN choose which authority you are carrying under, consider the cops who also have CHL's (it gets them through the NICS check for one thing). Which authority to carry are they using?

Now, I have to admit that the the law about showing us your CHL does not specify just when under the authority of your CHL. If that is what you meant (and it was in that context), the law is explicit that it applies if you have a CHL and a pistol on or about your person. It says nothing about authority. If I have a peace officer's license and badge, and a CHL, I would still be bound to show the CHL, even as i tell them i am also a cop.

Then are you saying there is no requirement for a CHL holder to notify the Officer if they are carrying in their vehicle because they now fall under the exception in 46.02?

i think he is saying that it should fall under that exemption. and i agree