CHL'ers: What would you do in this scenario?

[heliguy972]

Like RubenZ below this one conflicts me.

On the one hand this forum has made me PAINFULLY AWARE of the potential consequences to my life and my family of wifey and 3 little girls. One bad shot could ruin my life, and I have a GREAT life! So I want to play it real conservative and not do anything, hide and wait at low ready.

But what if BG pulls the trigger kills clerk, I'm stooping behind the chips at low ready, so I see I'm now in danger so I aim shoot and kill BG, call 911.

Now someone else's family is ruined and I had the possibility to stop it. Clerks wife looks me in the eye and asks me why I didn't try to save him??? What do I say, I was afraid for my future if I jumped the gun too early?

My conscience would be clear in this scenario but it would haunt me for the rest of my life....

[Liberty]

Like RubenZ below this one conflicts me.

On the one hand this forum has made me PAINFULLY AWARE of the potential consequences to my life and my family of wifey and 3 little girls. One bad shot could ruin my life, and I have a GREAT life! So I want to play it real conservative and not do anything, hide and wait at low ready.

But what if BG pulls the trigger kills clerk, I'm stooping behind the chips at low ready, so I see I'm now in danger so I aim shoot and kill BG, call 911.

Now someone else's family is ruined and I had the possibility to stop it. Clerks wife looks me in the eye and asks me why I didn't try to save him??? What do I say, I was afraid for my future if I jumped the gun too early?

My conscience would be clear in this scenario but it would haunt me for the rest of my life....

I think you have it pretty much figured out. There is no "good" resolution. Only that some solutions are even worse than others.

[Skiprr]

I bet that on reflex, most of us fall into one of two clear categories:

1. draw and fire, and keep firing until the BG is down, then call 911 and look and see whether we hit the good guy

- or -

2. duck and hide, hope the bad guy goes away before he finds you, and pray that you don't have to actually use the gun you are carrying. wait to call 911 until there is no threat or maybe not at all because you don't want the cops to interview you after you peed your pants.

Something tells me all of this reasoned response stuff is just fluff. We are most likely going to react on instinct and reflex. Either we are aggressive or passive. We either advance or retreat. We're an alpha or a beta. I don't believe in the gray areas. Our involvement in this situation is over in 5 seconds. Either we fired, or we hid.

Wow; baseballguy2001 resurrected and old Topic, didn't he?

mr.72, the problem I have with your appraisal is that, by definition, "reflex" is "an involuntary response to stimulus." You can't control it.

And the last thing you want to be in a violent confrontation is uncontrolled.

Something tells me all of this reasoned response stuff is just fluff. We are most likely going to react on instinct and reflex.

What you are going to do is revert to your lowest-common-denominator level of training. If that is none or little, then you're correct: you will react instinctively.

Are you familiar with Boyd's OODA Loop? A major military tool that also translates to business, Boyd's concept is, essentially, that the key to victory is the ability to create situations where you can make appropriate decisions faster than your adversary.

Observe -> Orient -> Decide -> Act.

You've had Psychology 101. The very basic platform is Stimulus -> Integration -> Response. You perceive a stimulus, your brain does an amazing job to evaluate that stimulus in microseconds, and an activity is initiated.

In an emergency situation, that Stimulus phase may be a startle pattern. Everyone reacts the same to these: physiological reflex.

If you're in a small room and somebody lobs in a flash-bang, you will duck your head, scrunch your shoulders, and raise your open hands in front of your head.

You can't do anything to modify your reflexive responses.

But you can modify your trained responses. To do so, you need to TRAIN.

If I were an innocent bystander in that Stop-and-Rob, I'd prefer to bet my life on your training rather than your instincts.

[SCone]

What if you "draw & fire" only to find the "gun" isn't real?

[lws380]

What if you "draw & fire" only to find the "gun" isn't real?

That's his problem! Someone pulls a fake or real gun and proclaims they are going to kill someone may become part of the gene pool cleaning process.

[SCone]

That's his problem! Someone pulls a fake or real gun and proclaims they are going to kill someone may become part of the gene pool cleaning process.

Granted, it would be a very stupid move on his part, but the situation would only require "force" to resolve. "Deadly force" may be allowed under the law (since no one is going to ask whether the gun is real or not) but "...a goblin waving a gun" would need much more insight in the actual scene before firing your weapon.

Draw... yes
Safety off... yes
Low ready... maybe (take aim, center of mass, finger off trigger might be better)
Fire... ???

Is the gun being "waved around" or is it pointed directly at Mr Storeowner?
How is Mr Storeowner reacting? Is he cooperating, resisting, screaming for his life?
Is Mr Storeowner reaching for his own weapon & now sees TWO badguys with guns?

[Glock 23]

What if you "draw & fire" only to find the "gun" isn't real?

That's his problem! Someone pulls a fake or real gun and proclaims they are going to kill someone may become part of the gene pool cleaning process.

no kidding, im not gonna stand around and wait to see if its real or not.
besides, any decent criminal would use a real gun.

[DoubleJ]

police that I've spoken to tol' me basically that it doesn't matter if it's real or not, because, if nothing else, they're using a threat of deadly force. whether the threat is real, or merely perceived is inconsequential.
not to mention the perp is using that threat of deadly force to commit a felony.

[casingpoint]

Dustyb sized it up. If the bg is going to kill the clerk, he is going to kill any potential witnesses. You have legal grounds to take him out. Your choice. Tough call. Most DA's are going to ignore the incident. But, Oh God, at the civil ramifications if you have anything in your pockets worth taking. This is an area where the castle doctrines of various states could well be expanded to limit liability in justified self defense shootings outside the home or a shooter's business. I want to say Florida is the only state to have done so to date. Such an exemption of liability would not necessarily have to be tied to a castle doctrine.

[kw5kw]

I don't know, I can't honestly answer this question until I'm placed in that situation in real life. There are just too many variables:
Is it a store I go in all the time and I know the clerks/owner(s), or am I in a location that is unfamiliar to me?
Time of day?
Number of customers, or lack thereof. Are there children present?
Am I at the back of the store, or right at the counter when the "idiot" walks in.
Will I even have a chance to draw?

Every situation is totally different and totally unique to that situation only, that's why I say: "Never proclaim what you will do."

There is never just one way; the way that is "THE" way of that peculiar set of circumstances are totally unique because just one tiny little thing can make a HUGE difference in how things are handled and the outcome thereof.

Russ

[JDKRIEK]

Draw my weapon, get a clear shot, and shoot until all movement stops.

Reload. Until all movement stops.

[JDKRIEK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xla55bM6UrA

[israel67]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xla55bM6UrA

Awful video.

My take on it is from the 'safety' of several thousand miles away, but I don't really see why anyone would hesitate a single second.

I believe I have a moral duty to protect life wherever and whenever I can. If I ever find myself mixed up in an armed robbery here in France, all I'll be able to do is shut up and hope they won't kill me. If it happens in Texas and I have a weapon, then as far as I'm concerned, it would be morally unforgiveable of me to just 'be a good witness'. No way am I going to just sit there and watch this go down, if I have the means on my person, to end it. I would never forgive myself. What if they get out without harming someone, and then kill a child at their next robbery?

No. If I can do anything at all to bring that robbery to an end, I'm going to do it.

[israel67]

On the one hand this forum has made me PAINFULLY AWARE of the potential consequences to my life and my family of wifey and 3 little girls. One bad shot could ruin my life

I'm interested in how, in Texas, one bad shot could 'ruin' your life.

I was under the impression that in Texas, deadly force was permitted to prevent a felony being committed. You shoot him, he dies. Doesn't Texas law protect you from civil liability? How can he (if he lives) or his relatives (if he dies) sue you?

Or do you mean that the 'bad shot' could be your missing, and his turning on you and killing you? If you meant that, then well yeah, it's a possibility.

Oh, can I hijack this thread? What if you have laser sights on your .45? You creep to the end of the aisle, he doesn't see you, you put the red dot on the back of his head and .. bang!

Or doesn't it work that way? I'm willing to be educated ...

[HerbM]

What if you "draw & fire" only to find the "gun" isn't real?

Not even relevant.

If you think it is real and you are using due diligence to make sure this IS A ROBBER (not a movie shoot, some friend showing his buddy behind the counter his new gun, etc.) then you must decide this:

Are you going to intervene in an armed robbery? Are you willing to take on that responsibility? Are you going to bow out? Are you willing to live with that instead?

This is not my decision for you but it is best you decide now -- at least in general outlines -- the cases where you will and will not intervene. Doing it now while you have time to consider and plan is a good thing. Having to do all this in the split second to few moments you will actually have during the situation is not the most efficient and effective method if you wish make a good decision.

Now, having plan that includes OBSERVING the "firearm" and determining if it is real or not might be an important part of your decision (or mine) but if you have determined it is a firearm then you have to react (or retreat) based on that information, or find a way to gather more.

If you KNEW it was a fake firearm, you might just pull out your phone and LOUDLY dial 911 or merely say, "Hey, you. Get out of here now." Are you sure it is fake? Worse to be wrong on this one than to shoot a real bad guy with a fake firearm -- that was his doing, not yours.

For me, I won't watch someone be murdered, raped, tortured, or some innocent beaten to the point of permanent or great bodily harm. I don't care if he gets away with the "company's money" from the register. I do care if he harms me, mine, or some innocent clerk.

That's my choice and I have plans for trying to determine the situation as quickly and as accurately as possible.

Can I be wrong? Of course, so having backup plans for those plans is good too -- and ultimately you accept responsibility for everything you DO or Do NOT do.

Also, one practical suggestion is to CONSIDER getting a little CLOSER if you are doing to take action -- grabbing some large, light item (think potato chips only quieter) and holding it with the weak hand in front of the pistol. You might also need to
change angles -- if the Line of Sight is: You, bad guy, clerk (or other person) where are your misses or through and throughs going to go.

You can train not to miss, but you have to PLAN for that happening anyway.