Are night sights REALLY necessary?

[HT]

Now how many carry a flashlight on a daily basis? I'm guilty of not carrying one. Maybe I should.

[KinnyLee]

Surefire Z2 with a KL3 LED goes wherever I go. It is a very useful tool.

[flintknapper]

For arguments sake, lets say only 1 in 20 "encounters" happens under low light conditions. You might be inclined to think: I'll never defend myself 20 times in my whole lifetime, and 1 in 20 are "statistics" that lean in my favor anyway.

Heres the problem: Bad Guys don't come in numerical order. If your "low light encounter" happens to be the first time you're assaulted, instead of the "statistical" 20th, well then.........

My take on "night sights" is : They don't hurt anything (except your wallet). They are useful in a variety of circumstances, but not ALL, as you correctly point out.

They can, under some conditions....give a much needed tactical advantage.

As LT mentioned, going through the dark with a flashlight constantly on creates a "target indicator", I'll simply follow the beam back to you.
Ideally, you'd want to illuminate/off and move (if practical), illuminate/off and move, etc...

The primary reason for a GOOD flashlight is for identification, and no one should be without one. Night sights do not take the place of a flashlight.

While I would prefer to have my target "lit up", I can think of more than a few situations where night sights would allow me to get on target (after identifying with flashlight), but remain hard to track myself...by turning the flashlight off.

Again, night sights are NOT for total darkness, you need at least a good silhouette.

The gist of it is: They are a tool that might give an advantage under certain conditions. Anytime I can buy an "advantage" for a hundred bucks, I'm gonna do it!

Great question.

Flint.

[flintknapper]

Now how many carry a flashlight on a daily basis? I'm guilty of not carrying one. Maybe I should.

Every time I carry, I have a tactical light with me.

Check your flashlight often for proper function. It needs to work, as well as your firearm.

[jimlongley]

I carry either a Streamlight or a Surefire pretty much as often as I carry my gun, which is to say almost constantly.

back to my previous comment about shooting IDPA in low light. We had some evening matches where we shot until well after sundown without lights - very interesting.

Part of the reason I now have several Streamlights and Surefires is finding out that a Mini-MagLight (two AA cells) was not quite enough to see IDPA targets at 7 yards well. So I keep a Streamlight next to my chair, one next to the bed, and one in my pocket when I go out the door.

I also discovered, along with several other IDPA shooters, that even the very bright 3 cell Streamlight was a little low on sight contrast. When I built my "night fighter" I included night sights in my specification and I haven't regretted it one bit.

I can now hold my flashlight in any comfortable position and depend on being able to see my sights, so I get target identification and can see my sights too, especially if I am strobing the light.

I switch guns twice a day, minimum, from night gun to day gun and back, and have plans to put night sights on my wife's XD9 and my pocket gun (which I usually only carry at night.

[flintknapper]

While we're on the subject of "low light", how many of you have actually shot in "very low light" with you personal defense ammo?

Most of it produces enough muzzle flash to blind every one within 10-12 ft.
The shorter the barrel the more pronounced it is, and muzzlebreaks make it all the worse.

Low light simulations using your "practice rounds" may or may not produce much flash, but try it with your "hot" stuff and see what happens.

Make sure you get that first round on target, because you WILL lose your night vision for several seconds.

Just something to think about.

[Chris]

While we're on the subject of "low light", how many of you have actually shot in "very low light" with you personal defense ammo?

Most of it produces enough muzzle flash to blind every one within 10-12 ft.
The shorter the barrel the more pronounced it is, and muzzlebreaks make it all the worse.

Low light simulations using your "practice rounds" may or may not produce much flash, but try it with your "hot" stuff and see what happens.

Make sure you get that first round on target, because you WILL lose your night vision for several seconds.

Just something to think about.

i've shot a whole lot at night. i've used guns with night sights, and guns without. i've used guns with lights on them, and guns with a light in the other hand. by far, the best method is just a good flashlight that's not attached to the gun. night sights are pretty useless. if it's dark enough that you can see your faintly glowing sights, it's too dark to see your target. a flashlight fixes that.

my personal guns have either white dot sights, or just plain blued sights. i think i shoot exceptionally well with itty bitty GI sights. muzzle flash isn't a serious problem in most calibers. my .357 magnum will start campfires, so at night, you can definitely see the flash, but it doesn't just blind me to where i can't see the target. .357 sig is the same way. a lot of flash, but really not enough to just kill you.

my preference stems from experience in real world situations. i've done building searches and often times, i would turn my light on and lay it on the ground or a desk. if a bad guy is going to see it, good; maybe they'll shoot at it. usually i leave the big one lying around, and take a little one with me. i shine the stationary light in an area where i can use shadows to move across the room. searching small rooms isn't that big of a deal, but i've searched frickin wharehouses and that's not any fun. i always throw a light down and make my way around using just that little bit of light. once your eyes get focused, you can see pretty well on minimal light. i promise you though, if something deserves shooting, you won't give a rats patootie about whether your sights glow in the dark or not. you'll be lucky if you even see them at all.

there are more things that i do, but i really prefer not to go into tactics on a publicly viewed forum.

[flintknapper]

While we're on the subject of "low light", how many of you have actually shot in "very low light" with you personal defense ammo?

Most of it produces enough muzzle flash to blind every one within 10-12 ft.
The shorter the barrel the more pronounced it is, and muzzlebreaks make it all the worse.

Low light simulations using your "practice rounds" may or may not produce much flash, but try it with your "hot" stuff and see what happens.

Make sure you get that first round on target, because you WILL lose your night vision for several seconds.

Just something to think about.

. night sights are pretty useless. if it's dark enough that you can see your faintly glowing sights, it's too dark to see your target. a flashlight fixes that.

there are more things that i do, but i really prefer not to go into tactics on a publicly viewed forum.

Chris,

Thank You, for your input.

I respectfully disagree that night sights are anything like "useless", but as I stated earlier they are best utilized under certain conditions.

I don't know what kind of NS you used but mine are very bright. A good example of when they can be of benefit.. is when you are in a darker portion of the environment than your target. Obviously, you need to be able to identify your target AND see it well enough to put the front sight on it. For those with night sights, go into a dark (or fairly dark room) and look into another room that has some amount of residual light, judge for yourself.

You didn't mention if you had any "help" on the house/warehouse "clearing", I hope so. Its foolish (at best) to attempt a dynamic clearing without a 3 to 1 advantage (if you can call it that). Night sights, or the lack thereof, would be the last thing on my mind in that situation.

As for tactics, unless they're unlawful...please feel free to share them. We can all benefit from someone else's knowledge. Unless you have very specialized training, its not likely that sharing it here will be a problem.

Thanks again for your perspective, and your service.

Flint.

[PPM]

I had night sights installed on my XD Service and found that, though you can see their glow at night...they don't make the sights "pop" in the daytime. So...I sold THOSE puppies and now have TFO's. (Actually, mine have the Fiber Optic AND the night sight combo.) I LOVE 'em!

When I shot (for the first time) with Thunder Tactical Shooters, one of the guys that was standing quite a bit behind me while I was shootin' said, "WOW! Those sights are somethin'! I could get a sight picture from back here!"

"That's MY story and I'm stickin to it!"

[flintknapper]

(Actually, mine have the Fiber Optic AND the night sight combo.) I LOVE 'em!
"

Sounds like a good combination. I have a "big dot" front sight which is a large white outlined night sight, for the same reason you cited above.

I'd like to see the Fiber Optic combo though.

[nitrogen]

Night sights are not necessary.
but DANG they look cool

[Chris]

Chris,

Thank You, for your input.

I respectfully disagree that night sights are anything like "useless", but as I stated earlier they are best utilized under certain conditions.

I don't know what kind of NS you used but mine are very bright. A good example of when they can be of benefit.. is when you are in a darker portion of the environment than your target. Obviously, you need to be able to identify your target AND see it well enough to put the front sight on it. For those with night sights, go into a dark (or fairly dark room) and look into another room that has some amount of residual light, judge for yourself.

You didn't mention if you had any "help" on the house/warehouse "clearing", I hope so. Its foolish (at best) to attempt a dynamic clearing without a 3 to 1 advantage (if you can call it that). Night sights, or the lack thereof, would be the last thing on my mind in that situation.

As for tactics, unless they're unlawful...please feel free to share them. We can all benefit from someone else's knowledge. Unless you have very specialized training, its not likely that sharing it here will be a problem.

Thanks again for your perspective, and your service.

Flint.

many times there were two of us; on occasion, i was alone. in some areas you just don't have the luxury of having someone with you. i've been through everything from houses, wharehouses, and office buildings, to entire schools. most of the time i found nothing, but i've stumbled across people inside more than i prefer. sometimes they knew i was there, others they didn't until i found them. searching stuff by yourself is scary. finding someone searching by yourself is worse. i once searched a used car lot that had about 15-20 abandoned trailer houses behind it. i KNEW there were at least 2 people in the immediate area. i had a dead handheld radio and nearest assist was 25 miles away, but they were tied up. THAT sucks. i almost killed one of those damn cowboy silhouettes that leans up against the wall. when it refused to comply, i was fully prepared to shoot it until i got close enough behind cover to see what it was. no rollercoaster in the world compares to that feeling. fortunately for me, i scared those two off into the woods, rather than find them in an ambush. they slipped into the woods and ended up stealing a car about two miles down the road. irritated me off that i didn't find them, but probably best that way.

i've used meprolights and trijicons. i've used green dots, and a combination of red/green. the dots are just too small to really recognize. trust me when i say that you aren't paying any attention to the sights when things are bad enough to be pointing a gun at someone; particularly those tiny little dots. if you're willing to pay the extra money for another gadget, why not? there's nothing wrong with them, i just haven't seen that they give me any sort of practical advantage that point shooting doesn't cover. most people don't practice running away and shooting behind them. when you see a gun, you're not going to stand there like wyatt earp with them. you're going to be shooting while you run to get behind something. i've done a lot of side stepping for cover. i see all those range people doing their quick draw mcgraws and a double tap. when it goes down, it's probably going to take more than 2 shots, so it's probably not a good idea to just practice two at a time. mix it up. shoot 4 or 5. that's probably what the person you're shooting at is going to do, and that hesitation might be enough to be the end of you. you would be surprised with some of the crap that cops do because they're trained that way. if you get a jam, don't raise your hand and stand there like a fool waiting on someone to help you. fix it and keep shooting. i know of people that have been witness to that very thing in the midst of a shooting.

now what i have found to be somewhat useful (as ironic as it may seem) is a monster of a fiber optic tube on the end of my shotgun. when there is enough light to see your target, there is enough light to make that thing stick out like a sore thumb. for a police application, i've used that setup on felony stops where i have a lot of light flooding the area. strobes make that little fiber optic dot flash at you too. in a typical joe citizen encounter, you're looking at primarily defensive. police, you could have defensive and offensive. i pull a shotgun on a felony stop because i'm going to make a lot of threats to get people to do what i want them to. that's a circumstance where i have time to watch the front sight. plus it's a long gun. a pistol really is nothing more than a defensive tool.

as far as tactics, there are things i just don't want to share. but there are some things that can help you on room clearing. take bathroom stalls. if you shine your light on the floor under a stall, look up at the ceiling. you'll see the shadows. if anyone's in there, you'll see them before you open the door. doing a building search isn't "dynamic". that's what swat does. those guys like to do things quick and flashy. it's best to be patient when searching a building. if you were going into a room that had hostages, and the goal was to eliminate targets, "dynamic" is what you want. you want as many cops in that room and as fast as possible. swat tactics emphasize room domination. one guy runs to the center and the others come up on the sides. you dominate the room. in a building search, it's best to stay behind cover, and against the walls in the shadows. an officer i know on his very first building search went into a business. he swears he never heard the pop, but he did hear the whiz of the bullet going by. another friend of mine silhouetted himself against a glass wall shortly before it shattered with gunfire. if you open a door. stand against the wall nearest the door knob. if someone's going to shoot when the door opens, they'll shoot as the door starts to open out of that tiny opening. as long as you're not in that area, you're good to go. if you see cops knocking on someone's door, you'll see them standing a ways back from the door, but off to the side so if the door opens, the person inside would actually have to come out of the door in order to shoot them.

i hope i haven't butchered this thread too much. i've only been policing for 10 years, so i'm not even close to being good at this type of work, but i've picked up a few things along the way.

[Boma]

I would get Nightsights, but my stock sights are lined up perfectly from the factory. I don't want to mess with it.

[yerasimos]

What I've gotten from this thread:

1) night sights are great for the initial sight "pick-up" or locating your handgun in darkness/low-light

2) you need a white light for target identification (you cannot pull the trigger using night sights alone)

Here's something I did not see mentioned that may be important to remember: the tritium (heavy isotope of hydrogen) in night sights slowly leaks out &/or decays over a period of years. My long-term experience with these sights has been a shotgun that I had fitted with a tritium vial in the front sight blade. Upon receipt from the folks who did the fitting, it was quite bright, but 3-4 years later it was noticeably dimmer, and now (8 years later) it is completely played-out.

Hope this helps . . .

[Chris]

2) you need a white light for target identification (you cannot pull the trigger using night sights alone)

white light with a red filter works better. it doesn't crap on your night vision.