Game warden incident

[Lonegun1894]

This was some time ago, but i am hoping to het a few answers on something. I was bowhunting at Aquilla (public hunting land), just outside Hillsboro, when i came back to the truck and found a gamewarden pulling up right behind me. The rules for that area are that you can be legally armed with a handgun as a CHL holder, but you can only use shotguns, muzzleloaders, and archery equipment to hunt with. When i came out of the woods, i was armed with my bow, and a .357 snubby, also had a 9mm handgun in the truck--all within the regs/law. The warden asked for my hunting license so i handed him my hunting license( along with the hunting, fishing, public land hunting permit), my DL, and my CHL, once again, going by the book here. He then noticed a magazine for an AR-15 sitting in the doorpocket of the truck that i had left in there from shooting that the day before, but i did not have the rifle with me. He started giving me an attitude about having a rifle and how he could arrest me for having a rifle in the hunting area and such. Seeing as i didnt have a rifle, he let me go with just a verbal warning to not do it again or i'd be going to jail for a magazine, but it got me thinking. Seeing as the truck was parked on the shoulder of a public road, and i was hunting with a bow, and not a rifle anyways, what would be the legal implications here? And how should i handle this next time around? I often keep a rifle in the truck anyways, and would hate to get arrested for just having one in the vehicle, and not doing anything illegal with it. When he was satisfied that i didnt have a rifle, he started hassling me about the revolver i was carrying. Asking about how long i'd had it, where i got it, when, etc, etc. I have the utmost respect for LEOs, and that includes game wardens, but this guy just rubbed me the wrong way with his holier-than-thou attitude and the what-are-you-gonna-do-about-it ending/threat. I was well within the law as i understand it, considering i didnt even have any weapon that was forbidden in the area, but does he have the authority to nail me for having something legal like a rifle in the truck? I understand if he'd caught me coming out of the woods with it, or with illegal game, or something along those lines, but this one just seemed to be on a powertrip. Can anyone please give me their opinions on this, especially anyone with a legal position i can stand on to either know my rights better, or if i am wrong on this, please correct me so i dont make the same mistake again. Thanks everyone.

[Reysc]

Sorry that happened to you and can feel my blood pressure go up justreading your post.. That will make anybody mad. That's arrogance on the part of the game warden plain and simple. i'm sure you will get great responses on the subject....I like your signature.. thanks for serving!!!

[txinvestigator]

This was some time ago, but i am hoping to het a few answers on something. I was bowhunting at Aquilla (public hunting land), just outside Hillsboro, when i came back to the truck and found a gamewarden pulling up right behind me. The rules for that area are that you can be legally armed with a handgun as a CHL holder, but you can only use shotguns, muzzleloaders, and archery equipment to hunt with. When i came out of the woods, i was armed with my bow, and a .357 snubby, also had a 9mm handgun in the truck--all within the regs/law. The warden asked for my hunting license so i handed him my hunting license( along with the hunting, fishing, public land hunting permit), my DL, and my CHL, once again, going by the book here. He then noticed a magazine for an AR-15 sitting in the doorpocket of the truck that i had left in there from shooting that the day before, but i did not have the rifle with me. He started giving me an attitude about having a rifle and how he could arrest me for having a rifle in the hunting area and such. Seeing as i didnt have a rifle, he let me go with just a verbal warning to not do it again or i'd be going to jail for a magazine, but it got me thinking. Seeing as the truck was parked on the shoulder of a public road, and i was hunting with a bow, and not a rifle anyways, what would be the legal implications here? And how should i handle this next time around? I often keep a rifle in the truck anyways, and would hate to get arrested for just having one in the vehicle, and not doing anything illegal with it. When he was satisfied that i didnt have a rifle, he started hassling me about the revolver i was carrying. Asking about how long i'd had it, where i got it, when, etc, etc. I have the utmost respect for LEOs, and that includes game wardens, but this guy just rubbed me the wrong way with his holier-than-thou attitude and the what-are-you-gonna-do-about-it ending/threat. I was well within the law as i understand it, considering i didnt even have any weapon that was forbidden in the area, but does he have the authority to nail me for having something legal like a rifle in the truck? I understand if he'd caught me coming out of the woods with it, or with illegal game, or something along those lines, but this one just seemed to be on a powertrip. Can anyone please give me their opinions on this, especially anyone with a legal position i can stand on to either know my rights better, or if i am wrong on this, please correct me so i dont make the same mistake again. Thanks everyone.

I am not a hunter, and have not even attended a Hunter's Education course, so I can only speculate. Forgetting hunting laws for a minute, you can have a long-gun in Texas.

From what I know about probable cause, just having a rifle in your vehicle would not be probable cause to arrest for illegal hunting.

Unless there is a specific law I don't know about, I would have to say you ran into a LEO who either didn't know the law, or is just a plain jerk. Could be either.

All of that said, you cannot win an argument on the street with a LEO. Even if he is wrong, if you argue or resist you risk arrest. It might not stand up, but for the time being you could be in jail. I suggest always cooperating when possible, especially with an officer who is acting the way your guy was.

I also suggest complaining afterwards.

FWIW, I am a former cop with 10 years LE experience. I also work with a few now. I fully support LEO's and I come to their defense when people wrongly accuse or place blame without actually knowing all of the facts. But you were there, and I believe your version of events.

Hopefully, someone with more knowledge about hunting regs will come along......

[Lonegun1894]

I'm just trying to make sure i am not barking up the wrong tree with this one. Spent several years away and had to deal with several sets of laws and am trying to make sure i am correct in the ones i am following. I hope i am corrct, but dont wanna become a test case or even worse an example either. I am used to dealing with hostility but not coming from LEOs. He made a few comments i wish i had on tape, but am not going to post, that coming from anyone without a badge would have been dealt with without the respect he recieved throughout this incident. Either way, no blood. no foul, but i'd still like to get my facts straight to make sure i stay one of the good guys, and dont cross that line by making some dumb mistake.

[Lonegun1894]

I have never been treated like this by any Warden before. I dont know what it was that caused it, but i have dealt with many before, in various states, and never had a problem. I know that with Public Hunting lands, you are dealing with various restirctions on what you can and can not use to hunt with. They do however allow a handgun to be posessed by a CHL holder. Like i said before, i wasnt hunting with one of the unapproved weapons, and didnt even have one with me, just a magazine for one. It is just the threats he made that have me wondering what exactly the truth of the matter is. I know that in TX, by law, any one of us can have any legal long-gun we choose, and within reason, anywhere we choose. By TPWD regs for these areas, they also forbid a rifle to be used in this particular one. The problem for me is, from what he was saying, if one of us gets pulled over anywhere on the PUBLIC roads going though and around this lake, he will arrest anyone for "possession of an illegal weapon" and poaching if we have any weapon that isnt on the approved list. I was always unde the impression that i can have just about anything in my vehicle as long as it is legal, and have never been told that these hunting lands are in any special category, and i'm thinking like a courthouse, school, etc. Guess I have a lot to learn, but am not about to argue the issue with any LEO that is acting like he was.

[Greybeard]

"Old-timer" hunter ed. instructor here. The vast majority of Texas Game Wardens seem to be quite legitimate and courteous, even when giving out the little blue "love letters". It sounds like you found one of the exceptions. And I know there at least a couple still out there.

The description of your treatment has me steaming - to the point I best sleep on it for at least a night or two before saying more.

[Lonegun1894]

sorry, doublepost

[Lonegun1894]

TXInvestigator, you said... "I suggest always cooperating when possible, especially with an officer who is acting the way your guy was.

I fully support LEO's and I come to their defense when people wrongly accuse or place blame without actually knowing all of the facts."

I cooperated, but for me, there is a fine line also. I had a friend with me and it was her first time hunting. She refuses to go back because she is afraid that she will be arrested. He also threatened to get physical a couple times throughout the whole incident and said that the only reason he didnt was because she was there. Disarmed me, within the law so no problem there, aside from the attitude. Ran my license, ran the numbers on the gun, etc, no big deal, nothing to hide there. I know this guy has a job to do, but the threat of physical force, right after i got back from Iraq, would have ended badly for both of us if he had carried it out.

[txinvestigator]

TXInvestigator, you said... "I suggest always cooperating when possible, especially with an officer who is acting the way your guy was.

I fully support LEO's and I come to their defense when people wrongly accuse or place blame without actually knowing all of the facts."

I cooperated, but for me, there is a fine line also. I had a friend with me and it was her first time hunting. She refuses to go back because she is afraid that she will be arrested. He also threatened to get physical a couple times throughout the whole incident and said that the only reason he didnt was because she was there. Disarmed me, within the law so no problem there, aside from the attitude. Ran my license, ran the numbers on the gun, etc, no big deal, nothing to hide there. I know this guy has a job to do, but the threat of physical force, right after i got back from Iraq, would have ended badly for both of us if he had carried it out.

In case I wasn't clear, I support you and am on you side on this issue. I made that statement to show that I always try to elvaluate complaints about officiousness.

Yours is legitimate, I believe.

[Lonegun1894]

TXI,
i understood that and appreciate it. I am not looking to try and get back at this guy in any way, and am not even going to try and file a complaint as everyone has a bad day at times and if it doesnt happen again, not going to pursue anything. I am just trying to find out who is right and why, and how to avoid future problems. Part of my concern, especially at the time, was the two of us armed and alone out there, with my word against his. Take that, and add the hostility he showed, and me having just gotten back from over there and still being a bit on the jumpy side, and i can see epople getting hurt left and right. Just a bad combination for both of us. I dont know what would have happened if it had gone bad, but there wouldnt have been a winner in that situation. I have broken various laws in the past, but nothing serious and nothing violent (speeding, illegal parking, being armed and hunting and hunting alone before i was old enough to be, that kind of thing), and have stayed clear of trouble best i could for the most part. But at the time, i honesty cant promise i wouldnt have reacted as trained without thinking about my actions til it was over. Many of you know the reactions sometimes come before the thoughts that maybe they arent called for at the time. I'm just glad this ended well.

[one eyed fatman]

and am not even going to try and file a complaint as everyone has a bad day at times and if it doesn't happen again, not going to pursue anything

So with no complaint against him he can pursue this type of action with others. Maybe he wasn't having a bad day. Maybe he's like that all the time. If you don't make a complaint against him you deserve to run into him again.

[Lonegun1894]

OEF,
I am spending a lot of time up there and will run into him again. I figure i'll give the guy a chance and see what happens next time. If it is anything like the first time around, i'm filing on both incidents. Several fiends of mine also frequent the area and we are all on the lookout. If he is decent next time, i figure forgive but dont forget. I am defintely not looking for any trouble, but will get a hold of his superiors if he does it again and give them both incidents if necessary. Have the date/time along with info documented so all it takes is a phonecall or letter if needed. I also dont wanna screw the guy over if it was a onetime deal. But if it's habitual, well, yall know how that goes.

[one eyed fatman]

Sounds like you got your stuff together. Good luck.

[KBCraig]

Lonegun, I admire your restraint, and the mature attitude with which you're approaching this incident. I assume that you'll unleash all appropriate action if he tries this approach again.

Just out of curiosity, I wonder if he'd have been so understanding if you were the one just having a bad day. Think he'd wait until your next meeting?

Kevin

[couzin]

I think I understand that you are upset that the LEO/Game Warden kinda grilled you there but consider the situation. There was probable cause that you may have seen the GW early and hid your rifle before coming out of the woods. There were two of you, one with a carry handgun, and another handgun in the truck/car at the available. The forcefulness of the GW was in all probablity an attempt to make sure he remained in control - they have to - their, and other, lives depend on it. Kudos for remaining reasonably cool. Just remember, they have a dangerous job and not everyone is living by the rules like you. One only needs to review the annual fallen lists to understand why LEOs have to be able to take control through whatever means possible. Sometimes it is all too easy to get offended, or see an officer as being overly forceful, but...