Possible Effective Notice Not Conforming to 30.06

[Kalrog]

Well, per the instructor in my course, it's kind-of a catch-22 situation. He said it was a felony under the "51" rule until they said that you were allowed to if it didn't have a 30.06 sign.

I think we may have a communication problem here. When you say a 51% rule, what do you mean by that? When I hear that, I think 51% of revenue from alcohol related sales - is that the same TABC sign / statute that you are thinking of? I can't imagine what alcohol sales (51% issue) has to do with a hospital.

And hospitals used to be outlawed regardless of the 30.06 sign. That was changed a few years ago and now they have to be posted to be off limits.

[stevie_d_64]

BTW, Hickeroar, txinvestigator is correct...

But do you want to take that ride, if someone does discover you are carrying where you shouldn't, and then hope you have competent representation and hope they can get you off on a technicality...

I wouldn't want you to have to go through that...Or take the risk...

I know most of this restrictive stuff stinks...I am so with you on that its not funny...

I may be I'm more confused than you, but I do think I understand what you're trying to figure out...

[KBCraig]

I believe Hickeroar said the hospital where his MIL works is not posted by 30.06.

Kevin

[jimlongley]

All I wanted to know was who enforces that segment of the law, ie If I spot a non-compliant sign, who do I report it to? Her take was that they ALL comply.

There is no one who enforces signs that are non-compliant. A non-compliant sign is simply non-enforceable.

Right, which I did find out from the young lady, but her statement was that they would enforce them as an attempt to comply.

[Hickeroar]

I think ya misread my post. The hopsital my mother in law works at is NOT posted.

However, what the instructor told us is that the 51 sign has two uses. One is at the bars etc with 51% or more of income coming from alcohol. The other being at hospitals and in that case they wouldnt be required to put the 51% in big red letters behind the text. It would just mirror the text and for all hospitals this sign was "implied" even though it wasn't posted.

Is this bull hockey or something?

Also, if it IS bull, is it technically legal to carry in a hospital that doesn't have the 30.06 signs posted? Thanks for any help you can give!

[txinvestigator]

I think ya misread my post. The hopsital my mother in law works at is NOT posted.

However, what the instructor told us is that the 51 sign has two uses. One is at the bars etc with 51% or more of income coming from alcohol. The other being at hospitals and in that case they wouldnt be required to put the 51% in big red letters behind the text. It would just mirror the text and for all hospitals this sign was "implied" even though it wasn't posted.

I have NO idea what that means. There is NO 51% for anything other than places that sell alcohol for on-premises consumption.

Either you did not understand your instructor or he had no idea what he was talking about.

If a hospital is posted 30.06 you cannot carry. If it has anything else, including a 51% sign, you CAN carry. Nothing is "implied".

[stevie_d_64]

There would be no use for a 51% sign at a hospital as the use of that sign is intended only for businesses that derive more than 51% profits from the "on-premises" consumption of alcohol...

Not the sale, but the on-premises consumption...

So bars/clubs that strickly serve alcohol are pretty much your 51% sign candidates...

Those hospitals are the ones that must comply with the 30.06 statute in language, contrast and size to be considered legally posted to restrict us from carrying inside the facility, and that means inside, not the parking lot...

That last part has been a real battle to try and get ironed out...

And not all hospitals post...I've not seen one at any entrance to S.E. Memorial in my nieghborhood...Nor at Ben Taub, or Herman...

The only hospital I know that has it posted is Bayshore in Pasadena...

[KBCraig]

Christus St. Michael, in Texarkana, has had full 30.06 signage since the law passed. It has English above, Spanish below, and in between are a ghostbusters symbol and 51%. It's been the subject of humor from folks in the know, joking that they'll have a martini IV drip.

I believe there was (might still be) something in the GC or H&SC that mistakenly included 51% as part of the signage hospitals are required to post.

But in any case... so far as I can find, there is no penalty for carrying past a 51% sign. If it's a 51% establishment, you're in violation when you carry there, whether or not there is a sign. If it's not a 51% establishment, then you're not in violation even if there is a sign.

Kevin

[txinvestigator]

There would be no use for a 51% sign at a hospital as the use of that sign is intended only for businesses that derive more than 51% profits from the "on-premises" consumption of alcohol...

Not the sale, but the on-premises consumption...

No, actually if they derive more than 51% of their income from the SALE of alcoholic beverages for on-premises comsumption.

(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or
license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic
Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its
income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises
consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage
Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

[one eyed fatman]

I think I'll disregard most of what I have read here. The laws confusing enough without someone throwing in a 51% sign in a hospital. Daaa!

All I know is I was going to this hospital for months before I saw this almost legal 30-06 sign. The wording was correct in size and language but the white letters on a glass background made it very invisible. Add to that the fact that as you came to the entrance the doors with warning signs on them opened and the 30-06 signs to the side of the doors were not readable at all.

If I go in the back door of a business and there is no 30-06 sign and then go out the front door and there is one, did I break the law? Daaa! I don't think so. But Daaa, some lawyer might think so. But Daaa lawyer won't know unless my shirttail came up and exposed my weapon. Then Daaa! I have broken the law because I brandished my weapon.

The moral to this story is don't try to figure out Daaa! law. If they can't figure it out then neither can you. Daaa! End.

[Hickeroar]

I think ya misread my post. The hopsital my mother in law works at is NOT posted.

However, what the instructor told us is that the 51 sign has two uses. One is at the bars etc with 51% or more of income coming from alcohol. The other being at hospitals and in that case they wouldnt be required to put the 51% in big red letters behind the text. It would just mirror the text and for all hospitals this sign was "implied" even though it wasn't posted.

I have NO idea what that means. There is NO 51% for anything other than places that sell alcohol for on-premises consumption.

Either you did not understand your instructor or he had no idea what he was talking about.

If a hospital is posted 30.06 you cannot carry. If it has anything else, including a 51% sign, you CAN carry. Nothing is "implied".

Hmmm. I think he was mistaken about the law regarding hospitals... I didnt find anything in the lawbook that jived with what he said though...so yeah it sounds like it.

So for the unofficial record: there's no problem with me carrying in hospitals if they're unposted...

[GrillKing]

There would be no use for a 51% sign at a hospital as the use of that sign is intended only for businesses that derive more than 51% profits from the "on-premises" consumption of alcohol...

As far as my non lawyer mind can tell.... The confusion lies in my original post. GC §411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES - states that certain signage is required by certain entities. (1) 51% sign for those that derive more than 51% of their revenue from alcohol sales for on premise consumption. (2) Hospitals. Hospitals are required by GC §411.204 to post signs like the 51% sign but w/o the red 51%. Their sign has nothing to do with alcohol.

Even though hospitals are required to post the sign as described in GC §411.204, as txinvestigator clarified for me, unless the sign they post conforms to 30.06 (which would also conform to GC §411.204, but not necessarily vice-versa), they haven't given effective notice. In other words they 'have' to post according to GC §411.204, but there is no penalty to me unless it also meets 30.06. Apparently there is no penalty to them if they do not post according to GC §411.204 whether or not it meets the requirements of 30.06.

My opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it,

[Kalrog]

So for the unofficial record: there's no problem with me carrying in hospitals if they're unposted...

I motion we add this to the official record so that we can all live by this and clear up this question. Do I have a second?

Short version - yes, that is my understanding and that of many real lawyers. I didn't even stay in a holiday inn express last night.

[Hickeroar]

lol. well. I feel smarter now and I didn't either...

[stevie_d_64]

There would be no use for a 51% sign at a hospital as the use of that sign is intended only for businesses that derive more than 51% profits from the "on-premises" consumption of alcohol...

Not the sale, but the on-premises consumption...

No, actually if they derive more than 51% of their income from the SALE of alcoholic beverages for on-premises comsumption.

(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or
license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic
Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its
income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises
consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage
Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

Oh, ok, so it has still been the combo deal all along...

I guess I have never been worried about violating this particular portion of the code...

I only drink socially at home, so I don't go to bars or clubs anymore, and thought that it was gauged on the on-premises consumption, and obviously they would sell that stuff...Its not free...

But just purely sales would indicate that liquor stores might be off-limits as well...But that would be wrong...

I thought the intent of the law was to reduce the chances of alcohol consumption by a licencee in a bar or club, which their purpose and object was to sell it for on-site consumption...Certainly we do not drink and drive, carry firearms, operate heavy equipment etc etc while intoxicated...

If you go someplace (liquor/grocery store), and buy the alcohol, and take it somewhere else to consume (i.e. home, office, party, park etc etc) thats different, because at that point you are required to adhier to a different condition or obligation to not become intoxicated and "also" be in control of a vehicle or firearm or other device which might not be a good idea for you to be associated with while drinking...

Thats why I did not associate the "sale" in that manner you state...Sale is obviously applied to on-site consumption in certain venues...And I believe the intent was not to apply to businesses that sell it for off-site consumption...

Example:

If I am out and about looking for that last bottle of wine/champagne on New Years eve...And I go to the corner liquor store, I am carrying a firearm for some silly reason, and I buy a bottle and take it home...I don't see a foul in that...Per what I understood the law to mean...

I doubt the fact that my carrying a concealed firearm, and having an un-opened, un-consumed case of beer, bottle of wine, etc etc with me (in my hand, car, home, hotel room, etc etc) purchase (sold to me) is illegal and violating any part of that statute...

I think they simply don't want you going to an establishment thats purpose is solely to sell alcohol to drink and becoming impared on "their" premises...

Thats why I think most Texas restaurants (that have a bar in them) don't fall into the 51% catagory...

I think Texas was wise to do it like this...Some states don't specify, therefore if the restaurant has a bar, guess what?

I think we both come up with the same conclusion, however we interpret the law...

Its bad to carry a gun and drink...ok...I won't...