wine tasting

[austin-tatious]

We plan sometime soon to visit some of the vineyards around the Austin area and do some wine tasting. I did a search and found two posts that said wine tasting rooms are posted 51%. Does anyone know if that is always the case? Thanks.

[M9FAN]

We plan sometime soon to visit some of the vineyards around the Austin area and do some wine tasting. I did a search and found two posts that said wine tasting rooms are posted 51%. Does anyone know if that is always the case? Thanks.

Maybe not always the case but they are vineyards and, as such, wine is most likely their primary commodity.

[KBCraig]

Maybe not always the case but they are vineyards and, as such, wine is most likely their primary commodity.

However, the vast majority of their revenue come from sales of wine that is not consumed on the premises. Generally speaking, wine tastings are free samples, with no revenue at all. This would not trigger 51%.

[Kalrog]

The 51% only comes into play if you are allowed to buy a bottle and drink it there. Otherwise it probably can't be a 51% establishment as it isn't sold for on premises consumption - just for you to take with you. Sounds like that might be a bad sign and TABC should correct it if you notify them. Although the "unlicensed possession" sign might apply.

[Snake Doctor]

I thought you could carry if there was no 51% sign... IE: At a vineyard, liquor store, etc., we all know that more than 51% of their income is from alcohol sales, but if it's not posted, you can carry there, right??

[LarryH]

As has been posted several times on other threads (this one, for example, http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... =7&t=14537), the presence or absence of the 51% sign is not the criterion. It's the actual type of liquor license from TABC. The percentage refers to the revenue from liquor sold for on-premises consumption. Your typical "liquor store"/"package store"/"class VI store" does not allow on-premises consumption, so will/should post the "unlicensed possession of a firearm" sign. You want to look for the notation "sign = blue" or "sign = red". Search on either of those phrases and you'll find several examples.

[LarryH]

Oops, wrong button.

[austin-tatious]

I appreciate your comments. I had not realized the sales had to be for on-premises consumption.

These are the two threads that say certain wine tasting rooms are posted 51%
http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... g&start=15
http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... ne+tasting

Based on what has been said about on-premises consumption being one requirement for a 51% TABC license (license=red), it may be those rooms were improperly posted.

Its looking like I'll have to just go and see, and whether it's posted 51% or not, look at the license itself.

[DoubleActionCHL]

We visited Comal Dry Creek near Austin last week. They are not posted as 51%, but contrary to someone's comment, the tasting 'samples' are not free. You pay about $20 or $25 for a full tasting. They do sell wine for on-premise consumption, as well. There is a similar establishment in Gruene (not a vineyard, but a tasting room) that IS posted 51%, although I had to look for the sign for about 10 minutes before I found it behind some bottles in a glass case on the back wall.

I'd say it's a fine line. Definitely look for the posting, but I'm not sure the absence of a posting means you're in the clear.

[WildBill]

I think we need Steve Rothstein to check in here. [He works for TABC].

FWIW - I would think that most wineries would not be 51% because they sell more wine for consumption off premise. Tasting rooms are not supposed to be bars. Their purpose is to allow customers to taste the wine so that they can sell bottles [or cases] for them to take home.

[srothstein]

OK, once again, the law says the signage is irrelevant and the ban is based on what TABC decides. Important note here that I don't know if I said before or not, but the ban is not even based on what the store actually sells, but is based on what TABC decides about the sales.

When a person applies for a new TABC license/permit, they are asked to estimate their sales. The categories are broken down into food, alcohol, and other. If the alcohol totals more than the food and other, the 51% determination is made. After the first year, the renewals ask for the actual figures from the previous year instead of an estimate.

Now, here is the problem. When TABC set up this system, no one expected wineries to be able to do what they can legally do now. Texas has what is known as a three tier system for alcohol sales. The first tier is the manufacturer. The second tier is the wholesaler. The third tier is the retailer. No one is legally allowed to own or have any financial ties to more than any one tier. For example, you cannot legally sell beer in a bar if you also own the local distributorship.

But, in the last few years, there have been many changes in the way alcoholic beverages are made and sold. Some of the changes were forced through court suits. Wineries are a big change that came about through law suits. For example, a SCOTUS case decided that an out of state winery could directly ship to a consumer in this state. Note that this violates the three tier system we had set up. As a result of this lawsuit, there was a second lawsuit allowing in state wineries to directly ship to consumers in this state. This was based on it being unfair to treat out of state wineries differently than out of state wineries.

Through the changes in the retail market and lawsuits, we now have wineries where the manufacturer is all three tiers and sells directly to consumers for both on and off premises consumption. They can also sell to other retailers as the distributor under some conditions.

TABC applications and most places accounting systems do not yet differentiate between the off premise consumption sales and the on premise consumption sales. This is a flaw that has been pointed out to the agency and the project is being worked on. I do not know when this will be changed.

So, in the meantime, we now have the problem for CHL's that TABC would probably determine that a store that sold wine for both on and off premises consumption was a 51% store if that was all they sold. To further confuse things, most of these stores also sell things other than alcoholic beverages, such as wine racks, wine coolers (the refrigerator not the drink), and cheese or other snacks.

Until we get the changes completed, it is up to the CHL to carefully check for signs and maybe even read the license to be sure. While it is true the lack of signs is no exception to a CHL, there is a strong possibility that they would be able to serve as a defense. It is also probable that the officer would not know the premises were 51% without the signs either.

And be careful, because the law says recklessly carries. If it looks like it is a bar, or might sell more than 51% alcohol, don't carry there until you do check the license.

[WildBill]

Thanks for your input Stephen.

[austin-tatious]

+1 thanks to Stephen! That is very helpful. When we go, I'll make a point to find the TABC license and see what it says for each one we go to, then report back.

[ShootingStar]

Guys,

This topic may be a moot point because any discussion of drinking can usually be addressed by taking a zero tollerance attitude for blood alcohol content. I don't drink at all for a number of reasons, but I also realize that some people do and it's their right as long as they do it legally and responsibly which I'm sure that you do.

The definition of Intoxication can be both subjective and objective. If you are pulled over while carrying, after leaving the winery, and blow less than .08 on the intoxilizer then you are OK with respect to the Objective part of the definition of intoxicated. However, if you fail a sobriety test for any reason then you may considered intoxicated. I would never consume a drop of alcohol while carrying because of the way the law is written and it may look bad for you if you ever end up in court.

If you're involved in a shooting, then they will ask you where you were coming from and you will have to say "a winery" where you participated in consumption of wine. Sure it may be a small quantity, but it still may look bad for you in court depending on how far things go.

Do yourself a favor and leave your firearm at home when drinking. I realize this is a personal decision and you probably don't drink much at wine tastings, but consider this. What happens if you go to court over a shooting and get either an ignorant or anti-gun jury? Things will go bad for you my friend. Now add to that you were drinking. Sure you weren't drinking much, but that may not matter to them.

In the end, it's your decision. In my classes I always tell people to give their lawyer as much to work with as they can. Like a Zero blood alcohol content.

-ss

[WildBill]

Shooting Star - The subject of "zero tolerance" has come up many times and each person has their own opinion. Many people also have a designated driver policy so, depending on the posting status, they may have the option to carry at the winery or tasting room without drinking a drop.