Walking through 30.06 signs

[tbranch]

It will always be a legal issue, but let us put our money where our mouth is. Can you add a POLL to your original post and see what the general concensus is on the matter????

I created a new thread with a poll on the subject of non-compliant signs...

Tom

[The Annoyed Man]

Interesting points raised here....

Let me start by saying outright that I hate those signs... but...

To whomever it was who posted that he harkens from the pre-civil rights era where people were denied access due to their race; with all due respect, we are not talking about race here. I remember that time very well also. You have no choice about the color of your skin at birth. You do have a choice about whether or not to go about heeled. The law currently allows restaurant owners to deny entry to people who are not wearing a shirt and shoes if they want to. They are not barring you from entering at all. They are simply acting on their legal right to insist that you be properly attired when you do. And they don't even have to post a 30.06 to do it. At least with a 30.06, you don't have to go home and put some clothes on. You just have to go back to your car and secure your weapon. But in neither case is the restaurant barring you based on something over which you have no choice - the color of your skin.

Regarding the notion that any place that denies you CCW entry assumes responsibility for your safety, it cannot be sustained by the law. Given the fact that the SCOTUS has ruled that even our paid guardians, the police, have no legal duty to protect us, it is going to be very hard to prove liability on the part of a business that posts a lawful 30.06 sign if a shooting should happen inside that business. There are lots of activities in life where people assume risks, and we have no reasonable expectation that the hosts of those activities can be held responsible for what happens to us if something goes wrong - a parking lot accident, for instance. Your decision to park in the mall lot automatically implies that you accept to do so at your own risk. If you cannot accept that risk, then the remedy is to avoid those situations rather than to confront them and expect a different outcome than what the law allows for. So, if you want to carry past a 30.06 sign, be at peace if you get caught, arrested, prosecuted, and lose your CHL. You had a choice, and that you chose "wrong" (meaning "illegal") is not the fault of the place that posted the sign.

That being said, I think the most grating thing about those signs is that the decision to post them is often made at some remote corporate headquarters, often out of state, by corporate counsel attorneys whose job it is to reduce their corporation's liability exposure as much as possible. They work for the corporation, not for us, so they are insulated and unreachable. That they actually increase their corporation's liability by thinking up diabolical ways to disarm their customers makes no difference to them. For the most part, they probably come down on the wrong side of the RKBA debate anyway, so they are not philosophically inclined to be reasonable about it. Besides, here in Texas, the 30.06 sign gives them the loophole to escape that liability. For better of for worse, the state has seen fit to add 30.06 to the code, and that is the reality that we have to live with for the present.

Regarding non-compliant signs on businesses, well, a lot depends on your relationship with the business entity you are entering. Personally, I can't tell the difference between 3/4" and 1" high lettering while walking past it without a ruler. Not being in the trades, I don't happen to carry one. If it looks like a legal 30.06, even if it is technically not, then I am going to respect it - just in case. The fact is that I am usually too busy to waste my time getting up close, squinting, holding my tongue "just so," taking out the ruler, and measuring the letters. For those other signs that don't even attempt to be legal (circle and slash over a gun silhouette, etc.), again it depends on my relationship with the establishment and its employees, and how badly I need their particular services.

As to private homes, you really have to ask yourself how important these folks are to you. My own mother, whom I love very much and don't get to see often enough (she lives in California) is rabidly anti. She doesn't even permit firearms related conversation in her house. She sure as hell isn't going to allow me to carry a weapon into her home. Well, how badly do I want to see my mother? Is my relationship with my mother more important than my need to carry a gun into her house? Of course it is. If someone else wanted to carry in my house, it would depend on how well I knew them, and how much I trusted them. I would definitely not want an armed stranger in my home. I would expect common courtesy to dictate that the individual would just automatically leave their weapon in the car unless they had first asked my permission. I trust all of my friends. My friends are all welcome to carry if they feel the need. Strangers have not yet earned my trust, and in that event, I want to be the only one armed.

Those are just a few thoughts about signs and homes.

[Kalrog]

Logical... up to this.

I would expect common courtesy to dictate that the individual would just automatically leave their weapon in the car unless they had first asked my permission. I trust all of my friends. My friends are all welcome to carry if they feel the need. Strangers have not yet earned my trust, and in that event, I want to be the only one armed.

Common courtesy? To disarm? Heck no! Common courtesy would be don't draw on me - don't do anything to make me think that I need to protect myself from you. Okay. But I don't disarm when going to a stranger's house because they aren't going to know unless the NEED arises, and then I better be armed.

[OverEasy]

Kalrog wrote:
Common courtesy? To disarm? Heck no! Common courtesy would be don't draw on me - don't do anything to make me think that I need to protect myself from you. Okay. But I don't disarm when going to a stranger's house because they aren't going to know unless the NEED arises, and then I better be armed.[/quote]

"Because they aren't going to know unless the NEED arises, and then I better be armed." That is the motto I live by also. I go wherever I please, armed, and nobody knows but me. Because it is CONCEALED. I'm not going to argue right or wrong, moral or ethical. I just do it. People who do not want to protect themselves, that's thier problem. I protect me and I don't trust anyone else to do that job. No, I don't carry in the post office or to jury duty nor the secured area of an airport. But I do cut those tags off the mattress!
Regards, OE

[The Annoyed Man]

Logical... up to this.

I would expect common courtesy to dictate that the individual would just automatically leave their weapon in the car unless they had first asked my permission. I trust all of my friends. My friends are all welcome to carry if they feel the need. Strangers have not yet earned my trust, and in that event, I want to be the only one armed.

Common courtesy? To disarm? Heck no! Common courtesy would be don't draw on me - don't do anything to make me think that I need to protect myself from you. Okay. But I don't disarm when going to a stranger's house because they aren't going to know unless the NEED arises, and then I better be armed.

Kalrog, That's fine... ...in your house. In MY house, if you come in armed without my permission and I don't know you well enough to trust you with a gun inside my walls where my wife and children live, and I find out about it, I'm going to eject you by whatever means necessary. It is MY home, and you have no rights there that I don't permit you. End of story. You don't like them rules, don't come around my home. If you are my friend - and a few of my friends do carry - then I have no objections, and I know that their armed presence actually adds to the security of my home. But if I don't know you or anything about you, all bets are off.

I am sorry if that sounds rude to you, but people who think they have rights in my home without my permission are being twice as rude as I am. On the day that you start paying MY mortgage, and MY property taxes; on the day that you assume responsibility for the protection of MY family, THEN you get to have a say in what goes on in MY home. As long as I pay for those things and the deed is in MY name, and the responsibility for protecting my home and its occupants is MY responsibility, then your right to exercise your RKBA without restriction ends at my private property line, unless I invite you to exercise them on my property.

It's not that I think that you personally and specifically, here on this board, are a bad person or irresponsible with a gun, its that I don't know whether or not you are those things when you show up at my door as a total stranger. It is that I am a small time private citizen with a lot of money invested in my (small) private property and house, with a wife and family who reside within its walls for whose safety I am responsible, and NO stranger not acting in his official capacity as an LEO has the moral authority to contravene my rules while physically on my personal private property. We're not talking about public shoppings malls here. We are talking about someone's home. Now, I am a reasonable guy, and if you, the visitor stranger, would take the time to establish a trusting relationship with me and seek to find out how I might feel about the issue, I might well change my mind about you and relax. But if I don't know you well enough to trust you, then you can just leave your gun in the car because my right to prevent armed strangers from entering my home supersedes your right to walk around armed inside my walls.

BTW, I've made it a point to get to know the tradesmen I've hired to provide various services to my home - A/C, electrical, contracting, etc. - and there isn't one of them who ever gave me reason to regret my decision to trust them. I like developing that relationship, because I want to be able to hire them again if I need their services and have been satisfied with their work in the past. Heck, we often wind up talking about guns and hunting, etc. So far, they've all been good old boys. But that being said, I still insist on my right to know if they are armed on my property if I have not yet had the chance to forge that relationship with them.

I have been very pro 2nd amendment and RKBA for a long time now, and I have been very much in favor of legal concealed carry for a long time too, although I lived for a long time in a state where lawful concealed carry was nearly impossible. But I have to say that, ever since I have come into contact with the Texas CHL community, it is absolutely astounding to me how many people who otherwise seem to be good citizens have the arrogance to assume that their RKBA rights trump a home owners rights inside his own home. I guess that makes it OK for me to stand at someone's front door and loudly recite the Communist Manifesto with a megaphone on full volume until my voice fails because my 1st Amendment rights trump the home owner's right to a little peace and quiet inside the walls of his house.

It is a really sad commentary.

[tbranch]

I am sorry if that sounds rude to you, but people who think they have rights in my home without my permission are being twice as rude as I am. On the day that you start paying MY mortgage, and MY property taxes; on the day that you assume responsibility for the protection of MY family, THEN you get to have a say in what goes on in MY home. As long as I pay for those things and the deed is in MY name, and the responsibility for protecting my home and its occupants is MY responsibility, then your right to exercise your RKBA without restriction ends at my private property line, unless I invite you to exercise them on my property.

Annoyed,

Wow! I'm not sure what brought this on. Do you carry outside your home? Do you have a CHL? Perhaps not. Paying your mortgage or bills does not factor into it and unless you give proper notice you can't exercise that right. Have you posted a 30.06 sign on your home yet?

I carry all the time and that includes into private homes. If they have a valid 30.06 sign or gave me verbal notice, I would respect their wishes and leave my weapon in my vehicle.

Tom

[aardwolf]

We are there at the invitation of the owners.

If they invited me, it sounds like I have effective consent to enter and remain on the property.

The owners have a very real legal (and in my opinion moral) right to arbitrate how firearms are carried on their property. To ignore that and disrespect their rights makes you little better than any disrespecting thug on the street.

It's not against the law if thugs "dis" you on the street.

If you had a business and wanted it posted 30.06 for whatever reason (just pretend for a moment)

Then let's pretend I post the right sign.

Let's also make a 30.06 violation have the same penalty as smoking where there's a "NO SMOKING" sign , bringing your own snacks or gum into a movie theater that posts a "NO OUTSIDE FOOD OR DRINKS" sign, wearing a crucifix somewhere with a "NO RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS" sign, or a kid wearing Heelys where roller skates are prohibited. (even if the wheels are concealed and not being used)

Let's also make cops have to obey the "NO GUNS" signs unless they have a warrant or there are exigent circumstances. Because property owners have a right to prohibit guns, right?

[Kalrog]

I carry all the time and that includes into private homes. If they have a valid 30.06 sign or gave me verbal notice, I would respect their wishes and leave my weapon in my vehicle.

Exactly. I would respect the wishes and either leave completely or just disarm and leave it in the car. But how is it common courtesy to leave it in the car at a private residence when no notice of any kind has been given? It isn't that I disagree with Annoyed's rights to control who is armed on his property - it is that he thinks it would be somehow rude of me to enter armed without his permission. I equate that to it being rude to breathe the air in his house without his permission. Or maybe it would be rude to carry my keys or pocket knife into his house as well? Those are just things that I always have with me and if I am invited, then the contents of my pockets go with me without a second thought.

[The Annoyed Man]

I am sorry if that sounds rude to you, but people who think they have rights in my home without my permission are being twice as rude as I am. On the day that you start paying MY mortgage, and MY property taxes; on the day that you assume responsibility for the protection of MY family, THEN you get to have a say in what goes on in MY home. As long as I pay for those things and the deed is in MY name, and the responsibility for protecting my home and its occupants is MY responsibility, then your right to exercise your RKBA without restriction ends at my private property line, unless I invite you to exercise them on my property.

Annoyed,

Wow! I'm not sure what brought this on. Do you carry outside your home? Do you have a CHL? Perhaps not. Paying your mortgage or bills does not factor into it and unless you give proper notice you can't exercise that right. Have you posted a 30.06 sign on your home yet?

I carry all the time and that includes into private homes. If they have a valid 30.06 sign or gave me verbal notice, I would respect their wishes and leave my weapon in my vehicle.

Tom

Tom, Actually, my CHL is still pending the completion of my background check, so no, I don't carry outside of my home except in my vehicle sometimes. That being said, I am disturbed by people who disrespect the private property rights of other private citizens. I'm not talking about public places. I'm talking about private homes. And yes, it does anger me that CHL holders think their rights trump mine inside my own home. Personally, I would not carry into someone's home without their permission, CHL or no CHL. I would consider it rude. And I don't tolerate rudeness from others in my home. And yes, since I pay for it, that gives me the moral right to decide the rules.

Like I said, if someone doesn't like the rules in my home, don't come around. It's my home. If you can't respect that, then you are using your CHL to disrespect me in my own home. It might be lawful for you to do that, but it isn't right, and nothing you or anybody else can say about it is going to change my mind. I don't want people carrying inside my home without my permission for the same reason that you want to remain concealed carry outside my home - that you can't always trust the other guy to have your best interests in heart. When a stranger comes to my door, how do I know that he's got my best interests in heart? Until I know that, I would prefer that he not be armed. Can you see my logic?

Frankly, I am puzzled that others can't see that.

Chris

[Lucky45]

Like I said, if someone doesn't like the rules in my home, don't come around. It's my home. If you can't respect that, then you are using your CHL to disrespect me in my own home. It might be lawful for you to do that, but it isn't right, and nothing you or anybody else can say about it is going to change my mind. I don't want people carrying inside my home without my permission for the same reason that you want to remain concealed carry outside my home - that you can't always trust the other guy to have your best interests in heart. When a stranger comes to my door, how do I know that he's got my best interests in heart? Until I know that, I would prefer that he not be armed. Can you see my logic?

Frankly, I am puzzled that others can't see that.

Chris

Yes and NO, I don't see your logic. For some reason, you think that a stranger that so happen to come to your house, is suppose to know that they are not be armed. Do you have those rules posted at the gate or fence. So how is it disrespectful??? Do you search and question every stranger that comes to your house about having a gun on their person; on their first visit??? COuld you answer that?? I think if you question everyone that you met for the first time about their carry status, then you would be able to achieve your goal. You wouldn't need to throw anyone out and get all wound up, because the word would spread.
So the problem is not about DISRESPECT as you are trying to make it. It is about notice which is what our topic is about, and since NOBODY notified the STRANGER, then how can he be at fault??? See my logic???

[tbranch]

Like I said, if someone doesn't like the rules in my home, don't come around. It's my home. If you can't respect that, then you are using your CHL to disrespect me in my own home. It might be lawful for you to do that, but it isn't right, and nothing you or anybody else can say about it is going to change my mind. I don't want people carrying inside my home without my permission for the same reason that you want to remain concealed carry outside my home - that you can't always trust the other guy to have your best interests in heart. When a stranger comes to my door, how do I know that he's got my best interests in heart? Until I know that, I would prefer that he not be armed. Can you see my logic?

Chris,

I don't have a problem with your thought process but how is anyone supposed to know? They can't read your mind.

I share your security concerns and I often answer my door with my hand on my weapon (small auto in a pocket holster) because you never know who is on the other side. I never let stangers in the door. If I need to talk, I go outside until I know who I'm dealing with.

When I visit friends and family I'm often armed. I never tell anyone and nobody has ever asked. If someone were to tell me they do not want weapons in their home, I would leave it in my vehicle.

I don't think we're far apart on this.

Tom

[The Annoyed Man]

Look, maybe I haven't expressed this well. Let me try again....

Kalrog and Tom, when you guys carry, you probably do so for a number of reasons, but I'm guessing that the obvious primary reason is that of self-defense. And one very good reason for carrying concealed (besides the legal requirement) is because you never know the intentions of the persons around you. Similarly, you probably also have friends who carry concealed, and each of you knows that the others carry, and you trust one another and feel fortified by knowing that there are additional qualified people around you in case something goes wrong. And how do you know for sure that these friends of yours are "friends of the court" (to borrow a phrase) and qualified? You know it because you have personal knowledge of their holding a CHL which says that they have passed a background check, are stable citizens, and are qualified with their weapons.

A) Are you with me so far?
And
B ) Am I right in my assumptions so far?

If so, now take a look at the flip side...

You've just admitted a person into your home to do some work of some sort. You've never met the guy. You don't know anything about him personally, except that he drove up in the company van to do his thing. He's got shifty eyes or sweaty palms, or some other mannerism that gets your casual attention. This may be nothing more than the facial expressions of a naturally nervous person, or it may be the facial expression of someone whose got something to hide. You don't know yet which it is, but its got your attention. Now the guy stoops over to get a tool out of his toolbox, and you notice that he's printing through the company jacket he's wearing. You suddenly realize that this guy with the shifty nervous expression has just carried a weapon into your home. You've just admitted an armed man in whom you do not have full confidence into your home.

Can you see where I'm coming from now? Like you and your friends who carry, I have no problem with my own friends. I trust my friends implicitly, particularly those who I know are qualified to carry. It's the people who are not my friends whom I do not yet trust, particularly when they are inside of the walls of the one place where I should have the right to feel relatively safe.

Now, if I know that that this worker is a CHL holder, then I can relax a bit, because I know that he has already been examined and qualified to carry. However, there is a catch 22 here. How can he reveal that to me without compromising his concealment? My reaction, on seeing the guy printing, is going to be to ask him outright if he is a CHL holder and asking to see his CHL. He's got two choices, he can answer in the affirmative and show me the license, and I'll let him continue the work; or he can refuse to answer, in which case I will tell him that I'm not comfortable having an armed stranger who has no CHL in my home and will he please go secure his weapon in his vehicle. At that point, it's up to him whether or not he wants to do the work, but if he does, it will be under my terms. Prove to me that he's qualified, or take the gun outside. I realize that I can't legally force him to show me his CHL, but I can legally fire him and deny him continued access to my home if he won't.

Is any of what I'm saying here making any sense to you?

[CJATE]

I don’t want to hi-jack, but it the same as the “order in English� signs. As a business owner I ought to be able to pick who I want in my place. If I don’t want guns (or non English speaking), it’s my right.

just take your gun elsewere

[Lucky45]

Is any of what I'm saying here making any sense to you?

Yes, but this is a COMPLETE opinion, compared to the other vague posts you made earlier. Here you happen to notice that the guy was printing and assumed he had a firearm. THen followed through from there. But how do you handle the other people that you HAVE NOT notice a firearm, due to exceptional concealment??

[frankie_the_yankee]

Like I said, if someone doesn't like the rules in my home, don't come around. It's my home.

I'm with you Chris.