Babiesrus

[Huff9337]

Went to Babiesrus near Brodie lane, in Austin. They had a sign in english and spanish. The sign was about 4 x 8 inches. I do not think it had the proper wording on it. I went in the store anyway. Was I wrong to ingore the sign?

[Xander]

Went to Babiesrus near Brodie lane, in Austin. They had a sign in english and spanish. The sign was about 4 x 8 inches. I do not think it had the proper wording on it. I went in the store anyway. Was I wrong to ingore the sign?

If the sign was 4"x8", it wasn't legal, as it couldn't have met the requirement that the letters be at least an inch high, regardless of the wording. I've done tests with an 8"5x11" sheet of paper, and haven't been able to make the letters large enough by half to meet the requirement.

[phddan]

"Was I wrong to ingore the sign?"

IMHO, and IANAL,

NO

Dan

[Kalrog]

You were just fine legally.

[TX Rancher]

“Was I wrong�?

To me there are at least two parts to the answer. One is legal and the other is ethical…

From the legal standpoint, I believe the consensus of this forum in the past has been “if the wording is not exact, or the height is wrong, then you’re good to go�.

Ethical is a different animal and I don’t believe the forum has come to a consensus…

Some say it’s ethical to go in…if they really wanted to keep you out, then they should have posted the correct signage. Basically, if it’s legal, it’s ethical.

Another camp says to take your money elsewhere. The intent is to hurt their business for excluding CHL’s from their premise. That would apply even if the signage is incorrect.

A third group says disarm and enter the premises…

Only you can answer what’s ethical for you, so only you can answer if what you did was wrong.

Let me give you an example of an ethical dilemma that may help center yourself. Let’s assume you have property that you like to hunt. It’s nicely wooded, full of wildlife, and has some nice bucks you’ve been keeping an eye on with plans to put them in the freezer come hunting season.

To protect from trespassers you decide to post your property, but when you look into the cost of signs and you’re surprised how much they cost. In a conversation with your neighbor he mentions he heard somewhere that if you paint posts, trees, etc with purple paint that represents notice in Texas.

It sounds like a cheap way to go, so you diligently paint markers around your property. Clearly your intent is to keep people out…

One weekend you take a trip to your property and find two guys on your property. You approach them and say:

“Didn’t you see the purple paint on the trees and posts?�

“Yea, we saw it�

“Do you realize that means no trespass?�

“Yes, we realize that�

“Then why are you on my property?�

“ Your paint is not legal…the bottom needs to be not less than 3 feet off the ground…we measured yours and they were 2.5ft off the ground…the notice was not legal�

At that point in time, how would you feel? They were right legally, but what about ethically? Your call…

I’m not looking to start the battle all over again, and I have not stated how I would respond to a non-legal 30.06 sign. I’m simply stating there is also an ethical question here that may not be that simple to answer for everyone.

[Keith B]

I think TX Rancher makes an excellent point. Everyone is going to look at the invalid sign differently from an ethical stanpoint.

Personally, I look at two things:

1. Did they get the sign close to wording and valid layout? If so, then I am going to abide by it and either not patronize them, or, if I really want/need their product, disarm and go in.

2. If the sign is totally invalid, is this the only place I can shop and get the item? If so, I may make a choice to disregard the sign and shop anyway. If possible, I will just move on down the road and go to another business that does not try to post.

Understand, these are places that have signs with verbiage in an attempt to prohibit concealed carry (not just the Ghostbusters no Beretta sign.)

If a rancher paints his trees with purple paint, even if not properly, I look at it like the close sign; he has made an attempt to follow the guidelines and I will respect his warning.

Each person has to make up their own minds in every situation as to how to handle it.

[zbordas]

I would not go into a business that posts. If the law gives me the right to lawfully carry and a business decided not to respect that I will certainly not respect the business either and certainly not spend any money at their store.

[WildBill]

To me there are at least two parts to the answer. One is legal and the other is ethical… To protect from trespassers you decide to post your property, but when you look into the cost of signs and you’re surprised how much they cost...

To me the Babies R Us and the Wooded Property are different ethical dilemmas. Babies R Us invites the public onto their property to do business, whereas the owner of the Wooded Property does not. I would not go on the Wooded Property whether it had a sign or not. I don't use other people's property without permission.

[cbr600]

One weekend you take a trip to your property and find two guys on your property. You approach them and say:

Why argue with them. Just give them verbal notice. If they don't leave immediately, or they return, have them arrested for PC §30.05. If they're carrying rifles, it's a Class A misdemeanor.

[troglodyte]

I just had this thought so be patient as I have not thought it all out. Just thinking out loud.

Are the 30.06 signs (and specs) there to protect the CHL more than to forbid them?

Let's assume the sign is not anywhere close to the specs (as stated in the OP).

We have no idea what the true intent of the business was (without asking them). Was it to pacify the sheep or was it to truly forbid the CHL? If I see it, I assume (correctly or incorrectly) that the intent was to forbid CHL entry and they are too ignorant to find the correct specs. You make your choice of how to handle it and I'll make mine.

Now what if I don't see it because it is too small or posted incorrectly(or similar the Grapevine Mills Mall scenario where some doors are not posted) and, by some stretch of bad luck, I get caught inside. First, they can ask me to leave (verbal notice) and I will leave, otherwise I'm in deeper trouble. But let's say the cops get called, etc. before I can get out of the store or before I am asked to leave. Now I can point to the sign (or lack thereof) and cry foul.

I believe the legislature was trying to make the 30.06 sign so it will be very noticeable. All the proper ones I have seen are hard to miss (assuming they are posted in a noticable place*, more later on that). We can argue how close to 1" does it have to be, what are contrasting colors, is the punctuation correct, and if words were added or omitted all we want. I don't think that was the intent of the law.

I believe the legislature was making it a little easier on the CHL. If they would not have put in some very specific language we would have signs of all sorts, wording, sizes, and colors. Can you see each CHL walking up to a door and spending half an hour trying to figure out where the business "hid" the notice? Not that the business would be out to get us but rather each business would just put up what was best for them. I can see it now. The Stop & Rob has it handwritten by the night clerk on the back of a receipt and taped just above the 2 for 1 Corndog ad, on the inside tinted glass. The grocery store has it in big grocery-store marker on the torn off flap of a toilet paper box. Mellow Yellow the We-Only-Sell-Yellow-Items store would have Banana yellow letters on a Sunflower yellow background. Can you imagine?...sheesh...we would never be able to go anywhere, it would be too tiring playing the Find-the-30.06 game.

Now, how close is close? Good question...I don't know. I would think 4x8" would not be anywhere close as 4x8" is not something that is very visible, even if was smack dab in the middle of the door.

Intent, ethics, and law...they all blur together at some point. The question is, am I trying to do "right"? And that is a life-long discussion.

*Back to the noticable place. I went to a movie theater once shortly after getting my CHL. You know the feeling, you're checking everywhere for a sign. I buy a ticket and as I am entering I happen to look back into the manager's office to the side of the lobby. Through the partially drawn curtians I see, what appeared to be, a very legal 30.06 sign mounted to the wall in the office. I could have walked in and out of that theater a hundred times and never saw it. I just happened to be looking in every nook and cranny.

I ignored this one...afterall, even I have to draw the line somewhere. I ignore all Ghostbuster signs, BTW.

Now, to answer the original question of "was I wrong to ignore it"...yes, no, maybe, I dunno.

[TX Rancher]

I think you missed the point of my post cbr600…sure you can just tell them to leave your property (verbal notice) and they have to leave. The point was do you think they were “right� to ignore the purple paint in the first place since it didn’t meet the legal definition of giving notice…

WildBill states his justification for why the two scenarios are not comparable in his mind, making it a clear cut ethical decision for him.

I suspect for some, they may go the other way…and some may be in the “I don’t know� category.

That’s the sticky part about ethics, it’s often not clear cut. Many of the folks on this forum have their CHL, and most visitors would probably fall into the Pro-Gun category…and we don’t seem to have a common answer to this issue. If you open it up to the entire population of Texas, I bet the waters get even muddier.

I just think this is one of those questions that don’t have a definitive answer. Each person will have to decide on their own what is “Right� and what is “Wrong� when presented with signage that is not up to the standards in 30.06.

[cbr600]

I just think this is one of those questions that don’t have a definitive answer. Each person will have to decide on their own what is “Right� and what is “Wrong� when presented with signage that is not up to the standards in 30.06.

That's true. When I see a "no guns" sign, I'm likely to do business elsewhere, regardless of whether the sign is 30.06 compliant. I'm just amazed that some people see an ethical difference between ignoring an invalid sign and ignoring an invalid sign. I believe a close-but-no-cigar attempt at 30.06 signage is really no different than a 2" ghostbuster sticker, and the law agrees. I also believe both are the moral equivalent of a "Whites Only" sign. Other people feel differently and I respect that.

[Venus Pax]

I just think this is one of those questions that don’t have a definitive answer. Each person will have to decide on their own what is “Right� and what is “Wrong� when presented with signage that is not up to the standards in 30.06.

That's true. When I see a "no guns" sign, I'm likely to do business elsewhere, regardless of whether the sign is 30.06 compliant. I'm just amazed that some people see an ethical difference between ignoring an invalid sign and ignoring an invalid sign. I believe a close-but-no-cigar attempt at 30.06 signage is really no different than a 2" ghostbuster sticker, and the law agrees. I also believe both are the moral equivalent of a "Whites Only" sign. Other people feel differently and I respect that.

I respectfully disagree with boycotting locations with generic "no guns" or ghostbuster signs. Businesses are doing this because it allows the charges to be upgraded in the event that a crime with a weapon occurs in that store.
CHLers rarely commit violent crimes; therefore, those signs do not apply to us. I don't think these business owners are trying to keep us out of their stores. If they were, they would post the 30.06.

As for Babies R Us with their non-compliant sign, I would turn around and not bother with them. They've made their point, and I'll make mine by taking my business elsewhere. Most mothers-to-be are registered at more than one location, and Target is a very popular one. I've never seen a 30.06 sign at Target, and they have an excellent baby department.

There are way too many businesses that aren't posting 30.06 for me to justify patronizing one that does.
JMO