LEO seizure of a handgun

[AFJailor]

I appreciate the risks that police take, but I do get a bit tired of the worn-out cliche of "just trying to survive my shift".

When it comes to dangerous jobs, police officers don't even make the top 10 list. They might get more physical, and even get injured, but they don't get killed on the job nearly as often as people think. Farmers are more than twice as likely as police officers to die on the job.

Well why dont you go say that to the families of the 186 police officers who died in the line of duty last year.

[TX Rancher]

I don’t think there was any intent to belittle LEO deaths in the line of duty. Every time an Officer dies in the line of duty, that’s a loss to society and a tragedy to his/her family, co-workers, and friends.

But the discussion was targeted to the often used “I want to go home at the end of my shift� comment. Of course this is a reasonable sentiment. I mean how many people don’t want to be alive at the end of their work day.

According to The US Department of Labor, in 2006 (I couldn’t find statistics for 07), 110 “Police� died on the job.

61 were due to “Transportation Incidents� and 47 were due to “Assaults and Violent Acts�

In the Protective Services category, they had the highest rate of fatalities for violent acts, followed by Correctional Officers (5) and Bailiffs (5).

Retail sales workers had 72 due to violent acts. Their bosses (First Line Managers) had 88.

For all the categories listed, there were 754 deaths due to violent acts, so police officers certainly had a high percentage, although not a majority.

According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reporting Program, there were 561,844 LEO employees in the US in 2005 (most current data on the site). This includes civilian employees in the number.

Now I know I’m mixing years, but I suspect the numbers do not move appreciably from year to year. So that would make the risk of being killed by violent act on the job for the officers somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 in 12,000. The risk for the officer of dying in a “Transportation Incident� is roughly 1 in 9,200.

The reality is, by far the majority of officers “go home at the end of their shift� each day whether they disarm CHL’s or not.

The flip side to that coin is how many have ended up dead because they did not disarm a CHL? During my search, I couldn’t find any cases…but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened. But I suspect the number is extremely small compared to how many times LEO come in contact with CHL’s.

To me the bottom-line is if an officer has cause to believe a particular CHL represents a risk due to what he/she sees at the time, then they should disarm the individual. But a general practice of disarmament for the officer’s safety does not appear to have any substantive data to back it up.

I think a little bit of mutual respect is the best way to handle the situation.

[AFJailor]

2007 was the deadliest year to be a police officer save for 2001, because of the 9/11 attack. The report that I read said that as of Dec 26th 2007 186 police officers were slain in the line of duty.

[carlson1]

Total Line of Duty Deaths In 2007: 181
9/11 related illness: 7
Accidental: 3
Aircraft accident: 3
Animal related: 1
Automobile accident: 47
Boating accident: 1
Bomb: 5
Drowned: 3
Exposure to toxins: 1
Fall: 2
Gunfire: 64
Gunfire (Accidental): 4
Heart attack: 7
Heat exhaustion: 1
Motorcycle accident: 5
Struck by vehicle: 9
Vehicle pursuit: 6
Vehicular assault: 10
Weather/Natural disaster: 2

By State:
Alabama: 5
Arizona: 5
Arkansas: 1
California: 10
Colorado: 2
District of Columbia: 1
Florida: 16
Georgia: 5
Guam: 1
Hawaii: 2
Idaho: 1
Illinois: 2
Indiana: 5
Iowa: 1
Kansas: 1
Kentucky: 3
Louisiana: 8
Maryland: 4
Massachusetts: 2
Michigan: 1
Minnesota: 1
Mississippi: 2
Missouri: 7
Montana: 1
New Hampshire: 1
New Jersey: 3
New Mexico: 2
New York: 13
North Carolina: 8
Ohio: 7
Oregon: 1
Pennsylvania: 2
Puerto Rico: 2
South Carolina: 6
Tennessee: 1
Texas: 22
Tribal Police: 1
U.S. Government: 16
Utah: 1
Virgin Islands: 1
Virginia: 2
Washington: 1
West Virginia: 2
Wisconsin: 1
Wyoming: 1

Average tour: 10 years, 8 months

Average age: 38

By Gender:
Female: 8
Male: 173

[Xander]

The flip side to that coin is how many have ended up dead because they did not disarm a CHL? During my search, I couldn’t find any cases…but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened. But I suspect the number is extremely small compared to how many times LEO come in contact with CHL’s.

I think that's a valid question, and I for one, would be interested to know if anyone knows of any incidents. Has an LEO ever been killed (or even shot at) by a CHL holder during a traffic stop? Not just in Texas, but anywhere in the country? I can certainly imagine cases when in would potentially be prudent for an officer to disarm a CHL holder during a traffic stop, but it seems to me that the circumstances would be extraordinary. Are there any incidents at all that would lend to the conclusion that this might be reasonable as a matter of policy?

[seamusTX]

Has an LEO ever been killed (or even shot at) by a CHL holder during a traffic stop? Not just in Texas, but anywhere in the country?

I think it's safe to say the answer is No. If this had happened, the drumbeat for the abolition of CHL laws would be impossible to ignore.

About half the states allow unlicensed car carry (as Texas now does). The only people who shoot at cops are career criminals who are wanted or actively engaged in some criminal activity when they are stopped.

- Jim

[Geopagus]

The only people who shoot at cops are career criminals who are wanted or actively engaged in some criminal activity when they are stopped.

- Jim

Wow, that is so far from the truth. Only career criminals shoot at cops when they are stopped? I'll leave that one alone.

[seamusTX]

That's nice. You question my credibility while offering no evidence to show that I am wrong.

If you can show me some cases where people who are not engaged in a crime (felon in possession of a firearm, transporting drugs, illegal alien, etc.) or have outstanding warrants shoot at police during traffic stops, I will eat crow with a smile -- well an embarrassed grin anyway.

- Jim

[KBCraig]

When it comes to dangerous jobs, police officers don't even make the top 10 list.

Well why dont you go say that to the families of the 186 police officers who died in the line of duty last year.

Right after you go complain about how dangerous police work is, to the families of all the convenience store clerks, cab drivers, fishermen, loggers, etc., who were killed at work.

Honestly, it's not even debatable. Just google "most dangerous jobs". You'll find all sorts of data.

[Geopagus]

That's nice. You question my credibility while offering no evidence to show that I am wrong.

If you can show me some cases where people who are not engaged in a crime (felon in possession of a firearm, transporting drugs, illegal alien, etc.) or have outstanding warrants shoot at police during traffic stops, I will eat crow with a smile -- well an embarrassed grin anyway.

- Jim

As I stated before, Unbelievable.

Here's your evidence that many people have already seen. It's the senseless murder of Trooper/Brother Vetter over the old man not wanting to receive another seat belt violation citation.


http://www.zippyvideos.com/1729980694559786/vetter/


Now go eat your crow with a smile and may this thread rest in peace.

[seamusTX]

Yum.

- Jim

[gregthehand]

That's nice. You question my credibility while offering no evidence to show that I am wrong.

If you can show me some cases where people who are not engaged in a crime (felon in possession of a firearm, transporting drugs, illegal alien, etc.) or have outstanding warrants shoot at police during traffic stops, I will eat crow with a smile -- well an embarrassed grin anyway.

- Jim

As I stated before, Unbelievable.

Here's your evidence that many people have already seen. It's the senseless murder of Trooper/Brother Vetter over the old man not wanting to receive another seat belt violation citation.


http://www.zippyvideos.com/1729980694559786/vetter/


Now go eat your crow with a smile and may this thread rest in peace.

WHOA WHOA WHOA there man. This was not some sweet old man who didn't want a ticket. This was by a man who was a member of the Republic of Texas and who had interactions with the officer before. Infact you can barely here it but the DPS trooper took a shot at the man as soon as he saw the weapon b/c he had his weapon out as soon as he started the traffic stop. The man refused to adhere to any traffic laws and had told the local police the next time he got pulled over he was going to kill whoever pulled him over http://www.odmp.org/officer/15433-troop ... ade-vetter. How do I know? Oh well we studied the case at the academy. It's a text book example of how to not perform traffic stops on known potentially dangerous persons and is taught to new cadets under the premis of dealing with KNOWN criminals who have threatened officers before!!!!!!!! You gonna tell a story to make an example tell the whole story man. This "old man" had been in jail before, had been arrested before, and had THREATENED the life of police officers before. I know this is becoming a heated topic, but of all places HERE we should look at the whole truth otherwise we are no better than the Brady bunch twisting stories to meet criteria. Oh as far as "dis-arming" Trooper Vetter was shot before he even had a chance to get out of his car. Seeing as how the old man didn't even have a state issued driver's license (he had his Republic of Texas one) I doubt he would have had a CHL; don't you?

[Keith B]

Here is another article on this incident with a few more details http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39913b7024b0.htm

[Geopagus]

That's nice. You question my credibility while offering no evidence to show that I am wrong.

If you can show me some cases where people who are not engaged in a crime (felon in possession of a firearm, transporting drugs, illegal alien, etc.) or have outstanding warrants shoot at police during traffic stops, I will eat crow with a smile -- well an embarrassed grin anyway.

- Jim

As I stated before, Unbelievable.

Here's your evidence that many people have already seen. It's the senseless murder of Trooper/Brother Vetter over the old man not wanting to receive another seat belt violation citation.


http://www.zippyvideos.com/1729980694559786/vetter/


Now go eat your crow with a smile and may this thread rest in peace.

WHOA WHOA WHOA there man. This was not some sweet old man who didn't want a ticket. This was by a man who was a member of the Republic of Texas and who had interactions with the officer before. Infact you can barely here it but the DPS trooper took a shot at the man as soon as he saw the weapon b/c he had his weapon out as soon as he started the traffic stop. The man refused to adhere to any traffic laws and had told the local police the next time he got pulled over he was going to kill whoever pulled him over http://www.odmp.org/officer/15433-troop ... ade-vetter. How do I know? Oh well we studied the case at the academy. It's a text book example of how to not perform traffic stops on known potentially dangerous persons and is taught to new cadets under the premis of dealing with KNOWN criminals who have threatened officers before!!!!!!!! You gonna tell a story to make an example tell the whole story man. This "old man" had been in jail before, had been arrested before, and had THREATENED the life of police officers before. I know this is becoming a heated topic, but of all places HERE we should look at the whole truth otherwise we are no better than the Brady bunch twisting stories to meet criteria. Oh as far as "dis-arming" Trooper Vetter was shot before he even had a chance to get out of his car. Seeing as how the old man didn't even have a state issued driver's license (he had his Republic of Texas one) I doubt he would have had a CHL; don't you?

Apparently, you must be an educated expert versed on this scene, since you "studied the case at the academy." Surmise what you want. You also might want to go ahead, scroll up and see how this small discussion between seamusTX and I started. It had nothing to do with CHL's being disarmed by LE. I think I have already stated this before, but just in case you missed it....I am PRO CHL. Some of your statements above are flawed (in my opinion) and to me come across as anti-LE. By the way, what is it you do or did "at the academy" if you dont mind me asking. Sounds like you train cadets. Are you a LE officer? I sincerely hope that I am not debating this with a fellow officer. If you studied anything else at the academy then you should know that career criminals or people with warrants are not the only people who shoot at officers on traffic stops. Which is how my discussion with seamusTX got started to begin with.

[gregthehand]

I think this is getting off topic Geo. I will send you a PM so we don't hijack the thread away from disarming or not. I understand you and seamus were not talking about disarming. But I hope you see my point that this guy wasn't just some guy but instead considered dangerous and infact a warning had gone out to the local LE community about the man. I understand your point and agree with you that it doesn't take a career criminal to shoot a cop and agree with you. I just wanted to add a little more detail about the circumstances that lead up to this shooting.