Entry wounds

[LDB415]

I'm reading a novel with victims shot with a 9mm. The detective looks at "the quarter-sized entry wounds". Does a much smaller than dime-sized bullet produce quarter-sized entry wounds?

[puma guy]

I'm reading a novel with victims shot with a 9mm. The detective looks at "the quarter-sized entry wounds". Does a much smaller than dime-sized bullet produce quarter-sized entry wounds?

I am certain a perpendicular entry wound from a 9mm wouldn't be quarter sized, but I'm not a pathologist. The entry wounds on my deer with a .270 Win are most definitely not large.

[Rafe]

Thomas Fincham? Yet another novelist who doesn't bother to do much in the way of research when using firearms in his books. His kind are legion. Which has always baffled me. Some movies, I get it: the director wants something visually specific and doesn't care about the millions of people who know anything about small arms. A shotgun blowing someone off their feet and hurling them 10 feet across the room. Indiana Jones never running out of ammunition and never reloading his revolver.

But writers? If the novel is a farce or absurdism or fantasy/science fiction, that's one thing. But if it's intended to be realistic, it takes all of about five or 10 minutes to search the internet or ask on a forum like this one; I think Reddit even has SubReddits specifically for firearms questions and one for writers to ask technical questions.

If it is the Fincham novel I'm thinking of, the thing is chocked through with problems. Whatever happened to "write what you know?" When our plucky detective walks into the crime scene, there is the "smell of cordite in the air." Uh huh. So, considering cordite hasn't been used since around 1945, the family was shot with a WWII firearm? A forensic conundrum: a WWII or earlier firearm that fires a bullet that makes an entry hole 65% larger than the bullet's diameter. One super great thing about eBooks: they let me start something like this and File 13 it after a couple of chapters without having to worry about recycling.

[philip964]

And here I was hoping this was about the Kennedy assassination.

Glad to see you’re writing a novel.

I assume the entry wound would be the size of the bullet for a fleshy area. From Kennedy we know a head shot is much larger.

But what do I know, as fortunately I have no experience in these matters.

I am amazed at the level of detail authors go into their subjects. Most really must research a lot as they get so detailed in their descriptions. Tom Clancy or Dan Brown for example.

Can’t wait to see it in print.

[LDB415]

I'm not writing, I'm reading, and confirming my thoughts. Or if I learn I'm wrong then I'll learn something new. But so far just confirming my thoughts.

[eyedoc]

Entry wounds are generally a little smaller than the bullet size. A 9mm would be about 0.3".

[LDB415]

Thank you everyone. So far my thoughts are confirmed. I'm glad to see my wrong total won't be increasing by one (more).

[Rafe]

Late getting back here again, but found a comparative reference that might serve: https://webpath.med.utah.edu/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNBLST.html. Doesn't address the matter directly, but does discuss what a shotgun would present...and it's highly doubtful to me that a 9x19, even if the bullet tumbled and it struck obliquely, would create a 1" entry.

At close range (less than 4 feet) [a shotgun] entrance wound would be about 1 inch diameter, and the wound cavity would contain wadding. At intermediate range (4 to 12 feet) the entrance wound is up to 2 inches diameter, but the borders may show individual pellet markings. Wadding may be found near the surface of the wound. Beyond 12 feet, choke, barrel length, and pellet size determine the wounding.

[LDB415]

Late getting back here again, but found a comparative reference that might serve: https://webpath.med.utah.edu/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNBLST.html. Doesn't address the matter directly, but does discuss what a shotgun would present...and it's highly doubtful to me that a 9x19, even if the bullet tumbled and it struck obliquely, would create a 1" entry.

At close range (less than 4 feet) [a shotgun] entrance wound would be about 1 inch diameter, and the wound cavity would contain wadding. At intermediate range (4 to 12 feet) the entrance wound is up to 2 inches diameter, but the borders may show individual pellet markings. Wadding may be found near the surface of the wound. Beyond 12 feet, choke, barrel length, and pellet size determine the wounding.

That's my belief as well. I'm going with that in my response to the writer.

[RSX11]

This reminds me of a quote from a pretty good Vampire fantasy fiction series (the first several books, anyway - Laurell K. Hamilton's Anita Blake books), about 9mm hollow point entry and exit wounds. Not very factual, but I had to admire the worsdmithing. "In like a penny, out like a pizza".

[The Annoyed Man]

I’ve seen people shot with most of the common calibers, from .22 to .45 ACP, and the three magnums in handguns (.357, .41, and .44); .22, .223, and .308 in rifles; and 20 and 12 gauge in shotguns…including 2 patients that were shotgunned at contact distance. With the exception of the 2 contact shotgun wounds, and the guy who took a .308 to the head, the other entrance wounds all appeared to not be any larger than the caliber that made them.

1. A 20 gauge contact wound to the leg immediately above the ankle, nearly (but not quite) severing the foot.
2. A 12 Gauge contact wound to the base of the neck, the entrance hole being approximately an inch in diameter with deep burning and stippling around the edges.
3. A .308 to the head with pieces of the skull missing and a large amount of brain matter missing. He lived, incidentally, curled up in the fetal position in a vegetative state for 2 more years before finally exiting this dimension.

In the case of the two shotgun wounds, the entrance holes were larger than caliber because of the destructiveness of the muzzle blast. In the case of the .308 wound, enough skin, bone, and brain tissue was missing to make it hard to tell where the bullet entered and exited.

Otherwise, entrance wounds, even from pretty powerful cartridges, are fairly unremarkable in size.

[puma guy]

I’ve seen people shot with most of the common calibers, from .22 to .45 ACP, and the three magnums in handguns (.357, .41, and .44); .22, .223, and .308 in rifles; and 20 and 12 gauge in shotguns…including 2 patients that were shotgunned at contact distance. With the exception of the 2 contact shotgun wounds, and the guy who took a .308 to the head, the other entrance wounds all appeared to not be any larger than the caliber that made them.

1. A 20 gauge contact wound to the leg immediately above the ankle, nearly (but not quite) severing the foot.
2. A 12 Gauge contact wound to the base of the neck, the entrance hole being approximately an inch in diameter with deep burning and stippling around the edges.
3. A .308 to the head with pieces of the skull missing and a large amount of brain matter missing. He lived, incidentally, curled up in the fetal position in a vegetative state for 2 more years before finally exiting this dimension.

In the case of the two shotgun wounds, the entrance holes were larger than caliber because of the destructiveness of the muzzle blast. In the case of the .308 wound, enough skin, bone, and brain tissue was missing to make it hard to tell where the bullet entered and exited.

Otherwise, entrance wounds, even from pretty powerful cartridges, are fairly unremarkable in size.

Mine was smaller.

[Rafe]

Speaking of ignorance of firearms in fiction and movies, this thread reminds me of why, about halfway into the first episode of NBC's series La Brea, I changed the channel and never watched it again. There were CGI dire wolf-looking critters that stood about 4 feet at the shoulder; at that size, had to be pushing 400+ pounds. One takes a running leap at one of the human castaways. While it's flying through the air, another castaway shoots what looks to be a .38 from a revolver at the creature, broadside, perpendicular to its jump. Naturally, the .38 round not only felled the massive creature with one shot, DRT, but stopped it on a dime, hurling it instantaneously sideways off it's flight path.

Now that right there is one heckuva .38 Detective Special. Maybe that's what we should be using to shoot down unknown balloons instead of $400K missiles.

[puma guy]

Speaking of ignorance of firearms in fiction and movies, this thread reminds me of why, about halfway into the first episode of NBC's series La Brea, I changed the channel and never watched it again. There were CGI dire wolf-looking critters that stood about 4 feet at the shoulder; at that size, had to be pushing 400+ pounds. One takes a running leap at one of the human castaways. While it's flying through the air, another castaway shoots what looks to be a .38 from a revolver at the creature, broadside, perpendicular to its jump. Naturally, the .38 round not only felled the massive creature with one shot, DRT, but stopped it on a dime, hurling it instantaneously sideways off it's flight path.

Now that right there is one heckuva .38 Detective Special. Maybe that's what we should be using to shoot down unknown balloons instead of $400K missiles.

If a 9mm makes a quarter size entry wound and blows the lungs out of the body just imagine what a .38 caliber bullet would do. Oh! Wait! Almost the same diameter bullets. Dang I thought I have the explanation. They could probably blow the wolf creatures clear into the next episode with a 12 ga.