TX: Humble woman charged with murder after claiming self defense after a homeless woman aggressively approached

[Noggin]

So, serious question, what does Texas law have to say about the use of OC/Pepper Spray? Where does it fall in the use of force spectrum? Applying it to a hypothetical real world scenario, what would the potential ramifications be of using it on an overly aggressive homeless guy who doesn't have any weapon in hand? By overly aggressive, I mean physically coming at you, trying to put hands on you? I know there could be a thousand different situations, but I'm just trying to think of a situation where it might be useful.

If the situation calls for OC/Pepper spray, it seems to me it also calls for deadly force. I have no intentions at my age of engaging in a hand to hand combat with an aggressor.

We can't attack someone just because they won't quit badgering us verbally. It seems they would have to be coming at us with a weapon or with an attempt at hands on contact. OC/Pepper spray is just affective enough to allow them to stab you or crack you over the head with a bat or stick. Maybe punch you in the face and knock you out. Sorry folks, I am no cop and if I need to use self defense, I am going with my most affective stopping power first. OC/Pepper spray is OK for the "ninja warrior" wanna be but for me I am stopping the threat as affectively as the law allows.

The "as effectively as the law allows" part is the problem.

Example: Unwanted touching is not a situation where the law generally allows deadly force (unless you've got an awfully good and imaginative lawyer and a lot of money to spend on him) but is a situation where OC can get the aggressor to back off with little risk of injury to yourself.

It has a place on the use of force spectrum and can save you a lot of unnecessary grief in unpleasant situations. That's why many LEO's carry it.

At 61 years of age, I have yet to feel the need to squirt OC spray at someone for touching me. I can't imagine a scenario where some homeless guy just walks up and touches me. And if he did, I would not shoot him or even squirt pepper spray in his face. I pass by folks all the time in stores and other situations where they might brush up against me(touch me) and again, never feel the need to attack them. The totality of the situation determines my response. "I have a boogie on my finger and am gonna wipe it on you." Would not compel me to either shoot a guy or squirt him with OC spray. I would try to back away. Boogies on finger touching really gross me out.

I took to carrying OC spray about a year ago or so. I’ll be 70 in October…a thing about which I’m still having trouble wrapping my mind around it. As John Correia words it, the OC spray gives me an option that is "between a harsh word and a gun".

OTH, you try to wipe a green boogie on me, you gonna die.

I know that the Professional Legal Opinion from my PrePaid Legal Service is that if the situation allows you to use a spray before you resort to bullets then you will be on much stronger ground in your self defence claim in court. As you will have demonstrated an intention to initially resolve the problem with less than lethal means, thus it will be more difficult for the prosecutor to try and paint you as a trigger happy vigilante.

Remember winning the encounter with a threat on the ground is only the first fight. That is the fight for life. After that is likely to come the fight for your liberty and rest of your life, in court. Now hopefully you will have some good experts doing that for you but you can improve your odds by presenting the best image of yourself and your intentions.

[03Lightningrocks]

OTH, you try to wipe a green boogie on me, you gonna die.

[Ruark]

I think OC is a great self defense tool in many situations. Just keep in mind that when you spray a BG and he steps back or falls to the ground with his hands over his eyes, it's OVER. If you kick or strike him then, you'll be charged with assault, or worse.

Fox Labs 5.3 Cone Mist is the strongest stuff out there - it's been described as "like a spoonful of fire ants in each eye." There is a lot of junk OC on the market.

Never carry it on your key ring, a popular option. Good way to get it knocked out of your hand, along with your keys, across a dark parking lot.

The "Stream" is NOT the best kind for self defense. Yes, the cops use it, BUT that's because they often have to use OC in crowded conditions, or inside a police car.

Don't wave it out in front of you, like "get away, or I'll spray you with this....." The BG will be more likely to dodge it or grab it and use it on you. To the contrary, he shouldn't even know you have it, until it's too late.

[03Lightningrocks]

Ten or so years ago I was in Dayton Ohio for an extended time because my brother had suffered a pulmonary embolism and was in a coma. He recovered by the way but his personality has definitely been affected and he does not think near as fast as he did before hand. Anyway, I was picking up some supplies at a grocery store near the hospital. Kind of a rough part of town. I spotted a medium sized homeless looking guy following along beside me from a distance. I even rerouted my walking and sure enough, he followed. So I get to my parked truck and there was a fence behind my truck and another vehicle parked beside me. I was trapped with one way out. I throw the groceries in the truck right quick and keeping my attention on homeless guy notice him coming at me. I immediately held my hand up at him and said go away. He kept on coming. I then raised my shirt and got a grip on my sidearm while saying again...get away. He stopped, looked at my hand gripping the sidearm and turned and left. IMHO, wasting time trying to squirt pepper spray in his face would not have been an option. A guy can pull a knife and stab me by the time I deploy spray and then decide to go for my gun. Nope, not me, he was ten feet away and that was plenty close enough. Bad guys can still grab you even after being sprayed. Especially if they are hopped up on drugs. Pepper spray might even make them madder. Self defense when called for does not require i work my way up the ladder. If it is called for there will be no doubt in my case. I don't blast people unless my life is on the line.

[The Annoyed Man]

Self defense when called for does not require i work my way up the ladder. If it is called for there will be no doubt in my case. I don't blast people unless my life is on the line.

I get it, and I don’t mean to imply that your response to a threat must progress along a continuum before you can respond with deadly force. For me, OC spray is merely an option I have available in the toolbox if that seems appropriate. That doesn’t mean that it’s necessarily the tool I must use first before going to guns. Having options is good; but having them doesn’t mean that you have to use them if circumstances don’t dictate it.

[Jago668]

I think OC is a great self defense tool in many situations. Just keep in mind that when you spray a BG and he steps back or falls to the ground with his hands over his eyes, it's OVER. If you kick or strike him then, you'll be charged with assault, or worse.

Fox Labs 5.3 Cone Mist is the strongest stuff out there - it's been described as "like a spoonful of fire ants in each eye." There is a lot of junk OC on the market.

Never carry it on your key ring, a popular option. Good way to get it knocked out of your hand, along with your keys, across a dark parking lot.

The "Stream" is NOT the best kind for self defense. Yes, the cops use it, BUT that's because they often have to use OC in crowded conditions, or inside a police car.

Don't wave it out in front of you, like "get away, or I'll spray you with this....." The BG will be more likely to dodge it or grab it and use it on you. To the contrary, he shouldn't even know you have it, until it's too late.

Just a heads up on OC spray for those that have never messed with it. You will get backwash. I don't care what kind you use, if you use it in an enclosed space you're going to know it. All the delivery methods have pros and cons. You'll get the least range and most dispersion and blowback with a mist, but when it works it's the most likely to get inhaled which is more likely to debilitate than getting on skin or in the eyes. Stream gets less blowback, better range, but harder to get anyone to inhale it. Foam has decent range, least blowback, but also least likely to actually stop someone as it's basically impossible to get someone to inhale it and harder to get into the eyes (also can be scooped off and thrown back at you, ask some guys that were at TDCJ when they used foam). If I was going to carry it, I'd also carry some sudacon wipes.

Also just general fyi. It is going to affect everyone differently. So don't go expecting to spray someone and have them instantly stopped. Might take half a minute to start working on them. I figure most people here will have a realistic expectation of what it will do. Just in case someone that doesn't rolls across this thread.

Ruark's advice is solid. Don't wave it around. Deploy it and move.

[03Lightningrocks]

Self defense when called for does not require i work my way up the ladder. If it is called for there will be no doubt in my case. I don't blast people unless my life is on the line.

I get it, and I don’t mean to imply that your response to a threat must progress along a continuum before you can respond with deadly force. For me, OC spray is merely an option I have available in the toolbox if that seems appropriate. That doesn’t mean that it’s necessarily the tool I must use first before going to guns. Having options is good; but having them doesn’t mean that you have to use them if circumstances don’t dictate it.

I hear you. I don't have a problem with anyone who chooses to use OC/pepper spray. It is just not for me. I have trouble grabbing the right remote when I exit a store, I just can't imagine standing around having an internal debate with myself about whether or not OC spray will stop an attacker. Tell you what though. If I am ever with you when we are attacked, you spray them with the OC and while they are distracted, I will put a couple rounds in them.

[K.Mooneyham]

Self defense when called for does not require i work my way up the ladder. If it is called for there will be no doubt in my case. I don't blast people unless my life is on the line.

I get it, and I don’t mean to imply that your response to a threat must progress along a continuum before you can respond with deadly force. For me, OC spray is merely an option I have available in the toolbox if that seems appropriate. That doesn’t mean that it’s necessarily the tool I must use first before going to guns. Having options is good; but having them doesn’t mean that you have to use them if circumstances don’t dictate it.

I hear you. I don't have a problem with anyone who chooses to use OC/pepper spray. It is just not for me. I have trouble grabbing the right remote when I exit a store, I just can't imagine standing around having an internal debate with myself about whether or not OC spray will stop an attacker. Tell you what though. If I am ever with you when we are attacked, you spray them with the OC and while they are distracted, I will put a couple rounds in them.

As TAM stated, I wasn't attempting to imply anyone HAD to use OC before moving to more permanent solutions to a problem, every situation is different and people have to do what they have to do. Some states have laws governing the use of OC. I was only asking what the law here in Texas says about the use of it, and I just wanted to create a scenario that sounded serious as to why someone might want use it. That's it, all I intended.

[Vol Texan]

I’m also in the “nice to have another option” crowd. I do not keep a miniature OC spray on my person, but I do keep a canister of “Antifa Spray” in the cup holder of my truck.

[Tex1961]

I’m also in the “nice to have another option” crowd. I do not keep a miniature OC spray on my person, but I do keep a canister of “Antifa Spray” in the cup holder of my truck.

You insult bears

[OneGun]

Coming up on a year old in this thread. Any updates on what her charge was?

As a litigation consultant, I have access to court records. The woman is still charged with murder. The Sheriff said the video showed the defendant approaching the murder victim, not vice versa. The defendant is indigent and asking for funds for a mitigation specialist to present evidence at sentencing if she is found guilty. She has a court-appointed attorney and she made bond. No trial date set.

[PriestTheRunner]

Coming up on a year old in this thread. Any updates on what her charge was?

As a litigation consultant, I have access to court records. The woman is still charged with murder. The Sheriff said the video showed the defendant approaching the murder victim, not vice versa. The defendant is indigent and asking for funds for a mitigation specialist to present evidence at sentencing if she is found guilty. She has a court-appointed attorney and she made bond. No trial date set.

Thanks, wasn't sure where to look for this data.

So I see the 6th amendment is still being steamrolled... "the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial"

I'm not sure exactly what the founding fathers though "speedy" meant, but I'm very sure that is wasn't more than two months or so. The number of people who can't make bond and sit in jail for a year or two awaiting trial is a horrible injustice.

Whatever the exact details are, it is wrong for the accused to have to wait this long and it is wrong for the public to (potentially) have a murderer on the loose without justice. No system is perfect but this one obviously needs to be reworked. Not just looking at her, there are many examples of this occurring, and nothing happens to fix it (looking at the Waco biker shootout as one example).

[OneGun]

Coming up on a year old in this thread. Any updates on what her charge was?

As a litigation consultant, I have access to court records. The woman is still charged with murder. The Sheriff said the video showed the defendant approaching the murder victim, not vice versa. The defendant is indigent and asking for funds for a mitigation specialist to present evidence at sentencing if she is found guilty. She has a court-appointed attorney and she made bond. No trial date set.

Thanks, wasn't sure where to look for this data.

So I see the 6th amendment is still being steamrolled... "the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial"

I'm not sure exactly what the founding fathers though "speedy" meant, but I'm very sure that is wasn't more than two months or so. The number of people who can't make bond and sit in jail for a year or two awaiting trial is a horrible injustice.

Whatever the exact details are, it is wrong for the accused to have to wait this long and it is wrong for the public to (potentially) have a murderer on the loose without justice. No system is perfect but this one obviously needs to be reworked. Not just looking at her, there are many examples of this occurring, and nothing happens to fix it (looking at the Waco biker shootout as one example).

In all fairness to the court, COVID threw court operations into turmoil. How do you seat a jury when you were to maintain a distance of 6ft? Also, wearing a mask for 8-10 hours in a courtroom is quite miserable. One of my trials was supposed to be held in Reliant Stadium, but it settled.