IL: Man is killed trying to grab a CHL's gun during potential road rage

[philip964]

https://redstatenation.com/video-man-ge ... f-defense/

The article asks is this self defense. The man shot was the one out of his car with his head inside the window of the other car.

I would say it is self defense. Had the man outside his car had brought a gun with him and stuck it in the car, and the man in the car tried to grab it, and the man outside the car shot and killed the man inside the car it would not be self defense but murder.

[puma guy]

https://redstatenation.com/video-man-ge ... f-defense/

The article asks is this self defense. The man shot was the one out of his car with his head inside the window of the other car.

I would say it is self defense. Had the man outside his car had brought a gun with him and stuck it in the car, and the man in the car tried to grab it, and the man outside the car shot and killed the man inside the car it would not be self defense but murder.

I don't see self defense in that video. The truck guys arm and hand were out of the window and he had disengaged from the vehicle posing no threat. IMHO

[03Lightningrocks]

https://redstatenation.com/video-man-ge ... f-defense/

The article asks is this self defense. The man shot was the one out of his car with his head inside the window of the other car.

I would say it is self defense. Had the man outside his car had brought a gun with him and stuck it in the car, and the man in the car tried to grab it, and the man outside the car shot and killed the man inside the car it would not be self defense but murder.

I don't see self defense in that video. The truck guys arm and hand were out of the window and he had disengaged from the vehicle posing no threat. IMHO

I agree with you. I do see a whole lot of stupid. Getting out of your vehicle to confront another driver in a road rage situation is a real dumb move.

[Flightmare]

I can't tell from the video if the guy outside the vehicle was actually reaching for the driver's gun, attempting to push him, or reaching to collect something (like exchanging insurance). There is so little information in this video, and it's VERY easy to take it out of context. I hear what sounds like the car radio of the vehicle the dash cam is mounted in, but cannot hear what was said between the 2 involved in this incident.

[puma guy]

I can't tell from the video if the guy outside the vehicle was actually reaching for the driver's gun, attempting to push him, or reaching to collect something (like exchanging insurance). There is so little information in this video, and it's VERY easy to take it out of context. I hear what sounds like the car radio of the vehicle the dash cam is mounted in, but cannot hear what was said between the 2 involved in this incident.

His body position puts him in a awkward posture if he was attempting to grab something. Left arm at his side, stooped at an angle and his arm was retracted before the guy shot him 5 times. Stop motioned the video. It looked to me like his hand was level with the driver's shoulder and he made a sort of poke. His arm was definitely away from the window and his hand was palm down, fingers extended as if he just finished a poking when the guy opened fire. I say bad shoot.

[03Lightningrocks]

deleted...double post. Sorry

[03Lightningrocks]

I can't tell from the video if the guy outside the vehicle was actually reaching for the driver's gun, attempting to push him, or reaching to collect something (like exchanging insurance). There is so little information in this video, and it's VERY easy to take it out of context. I hear what sounds like the car radio of the vehicle the dash cam is mounted in, but cannot hear what was said between the 2 involved in this incident.

His body position puts him in a awkward posture if he was attempting to grab something. Left arm at his side, stooped at an angle and his arm was retracted before the guy shot him 5 times. Stop motioned the video. It looked to me like his hand was level with the driver's shoulder and he made a sort of poke. His arm was definitely away from the window and his hand was palm down, fingers extended as if he just finished a poking when the guy opened fire. I say bad shoot.

That was how it looked to me as well. It kind of looked like he reached in and poked the guy on his shoulder. I will be surprised if they call this self defense. The shooters life did not appear to be in danger at all. Personally, I would not shoot a guy for poking me on the shoulder or even giving me a shove during an argument. Especially if he backed away after doing it. I would first try to de-escalate but maybe the guy in the car got scared...or mad. Is scared grounds for self defense. "Fear for your life". But then don't you have to show reasonable cause to fear for your life. I know mad is not a defense to use deadly force.

With so many people carrying firearms in their cars and some or many of them being irrational, I avoid road rage situations with all my being. My one self defense shooting situation was a road rage. The guy was not going to let me get away. It ended up in self defense no bill. I walked but nobody was killed either. The Dallas County grand jury determined he was using his vehicle as a deadly weapon. Fortunately the guys passenger spilled the beans and reported what the driver was saying as he tried to run me off the Tollway multiple times. The driver had been drinking and was a "mean drunk" type guy. In this video, it appears the guy in the car stopped and awaited confrontation with a firearm. I dunno. Could go either way.

[AndyC1911]

I'm not sure that's a very defensible shoot.

[srothstein]

This does not look defensible to me, but there is another factor that may make it so. I can see where reaching into the car is an attack, especially if you don't know what he is reaching for. Is he going to hit the driver, poke him (which I don't understand but is possible), strangle him, or punch him?. Given that, then it is possible that this is when the driver pulled his weapon and made the decision to fire. Studies at the Force Science Institute show that once your mind makes that decision, it is hard to stop the body from acting. The man sees the gun coming up and reacts by pulling back butt he driver is already raising the gun to fire. By the time his mind realizes the man is pulling back and breaking away, his hand has brought up the gun and is firing. This makes it look worse on the video than it was at the time the driver decided to shoot.

One of the premises of the studies was to see why police officers were shooting people in the back when they said they were attacking. Videos of several people were made and show this delay in reaction time. It is a very interesting field of study to me, especially the action and reaction time parts. We all already know that action beats reaction but what about reacting to the reaction?

[Excaliber]

This does not look defensible to me, but there is another factor that may make it so. I can see where reaching into the car is an attack, especially if you don't know what he is reaching for. Is he going to hit the driver, poke him (which I don't understand but is possible), strangle him, or punch him?. Given that, then it is possible that this is when the driver pulled his weapon and made the decision to fire. Studies at the Force Science Institute show that once your mind makes that decision, it is hard to stop the body from acting. The man sees the gun coming up and reacts by pulling back butt he driver is already raising the gun to fire. By the time his mind realizes the man is pulling back and breaking away, his hand has brought up the gun and is firing. This makes it look worse on the video than it was at the time the driver decided to shoot.

One of the premises of the studies was to see why police officers were shooting people in the back when they said they were attacking. Videos of several people were made and show this delay in reaction time. It is a very interesting field of study to me, especially the action and reaction time parts. We all already know that action beats reaction but what about reacting to the reaction?

This is the only angle I can think of that may support a conclusion of a good shoot.

[jerry_r60]

My pure speculation but based on just the first thoughts and feelings that popped in my head watching the video. The guy outside's body language looked fairly relaxed, he didn't appear all amped up "in a rage". The move of his arm into the vehicle was kind of slow. My first thought was the guy in the car had a gun pointing, the guy reaching in tried to push it aside to not point at him.

No evidence inside the car, just what popped in my head watching it. I think this one is tough for the shooter in front of a jury.

Another issue may be if the driver is considered the aggressor. If you consider the guy at the window is talking and the guy in the car points a gun at him, is the guy in the car then the aggressor losing his right to claim self defense in IL?

If neither is forced off the road and they stop voluntarily there would seem to be an expectation that one would approach the other to "talk".

[RoyGBiv]

Requires more information.

Based on his head-high arm/hand height, seems clear to me that dead guy reached in and shoved the head of the driver. The only way he was pushing at a gun in that location is if the passenger of the white car was pointing it from the other side of the vehicle, over or behind the driver.

Don't road rage. You might get "Dead Right".

Seems easy enough for the driver of the white car to just drive forward.... Car was running. No oncoming traffic. Even if the shoot is found justified, I would hope that if I had what looks like an easy out, I would take the out (assuming no increased risk) rather than having to live with killing someone.

[philip964]

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2022 ... streamwood

Stopped at light.

https://www.dailyherald.com/news/202203 ... ge-killing

Charged with murder. 18 yo. No mention of CHL.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ghway.html

Not cooperating with police including identification.


I’m going to hold back on that not guilty and say this is questionable. But you don’t reach into a guys car.

[RoyGBiv]

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2022 ... streamwood

The driver in the Ford approached Mattison’s vehicle and shot him.

Um.... Great reporting there.
Didn't bother watching the video, apparently.

[03Lightningrocks]

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2022 ... streamwood

The driver in the Ford approached Mattison’s vehicle and shot him.

Um.... Great reporting there.
Didn't bother watching the video, apparently.

That one confused me a bit at first. I thought the reporter was talking about some other shooting. I actually looked at the location again and realized the story was off.