When is a school a school?

[TomS]

Hmm, interesting topic. Is it a school or educational institution as described in prohibited carry places by the state, or is it a church that happens to teach K through 12? Good question, I’d like to know the answer to this even though I’ll probably never need to know.

[rdcrags]

It pretty much is a joint use area. The school uses it exclusively M-F, and the church uses it exclusively Sunday mornings for Sunday school classes. The church also uses it on Wednesday nights.

Could a prosecutor charge you with a felony for carry in the building during Sunday morning? Is it worth the risk?

Hopefully the bill Mr. Cotton wrote will get passed and make this issue obsolete.

Is it a felony for a CHL holder to get caught carrying concealed in a place classified as a school, or a Class C mis. ?

[WildRose]

It pretty much is a joint use area. The school uses it exclusively M-F, and the church uses it exclusively Sunday mornings for Sunday school classes. The church also uses it on Wednesday nights.

Could a prosecutor charge you with a felony for carry in the building during Sunday morning? Is it worth the risk?

Hopefully the bill Mr. Cotton wrote will get passed and make this issue obsolete.

Is it a felony for a CHL holder to get caught carrying concealed in a place classified as a school, or a Class C mis. ?

It is a crime if you are carrying without specific permission of the school authority.

As I understand it... if it is a dual use facility to be carrying when the building is being used as a "school". That would not include "sunday school" at which time the normal law as applied to churches would apply.

In this day and age though you never know when you are going to be confronted by an overzealous cop, get called in by an anti gun busibody, or having had the police called and gotten yourself arrested by either ending up in front of a Judge and DA looking to set precedent who oppose legal carry.

The safest course of action which I'd encourage every church/religious institution who also holds school part time would be for the board to come up with a specific policy allowing for certain staff/faculty/members to be listed as authorized to carry outside of class time.

If you have an attorney among the membership drawing something up to cover everyone should be relatively simple.

[Liberty]

The safest course of action which I'd encourage every church/religious institution who also holds school part time would be for the board to come up with a specific policy allowing for certain staff/faculty/members to be listed as authorized to carry outside of class time.

If you have an attorney among the membership drawing something up to cover everyone should be relatively simple.

The safest course of action would be a policy that allows anyone properly licensed to carry. The Chosen Few concept, implys that all others are not wanted or are uninvited. All I know is that if I'm not trusted enough to carry, I am not attending or supporting that organization.

[WildRose]

The safest course of action which I'd encourage every church/religious institution who also holds school part time would be for the board to come up with a specific policy allowing for certain staff/faculty/members to be listed as authorized to carry outside of class time.

If you have an attorney among the membership drawing something up to cover everyone should be relatively simple.

The safest course of action would be a policy that allows anyone properly licensed to carry. The Chosen Few concept, implys that all others are not wanted or are uninvited. All I know is that if I'm not trusted enough to carry, I am not attending or supporting that organization.

In general I agree but under the law only those specifically authorized can carry in a school or at school events held on campus.

When you're in a gray area that is left largely up to the interpretation of the police and local/count/DA the best way to go about it is to eliminate the gray.

You can be absolutely in the right and still find yourself arrested, charged, and convicted in a crime if you end up being on the wrong end of someone's political agenda.

[Dreamer42]

I taught public school for 29 years but now teach at a private school. We are accredited. The building is posted 30-07 only. No, I do not carry. The school board says "no". An interesting situation is that sometimes during the school day church members meet in unused classrooms. Since they are conducting church activities in their church building, but during our school hours, can one of their members carry?

[WildRose]

I taught public school for 29 years but now teach at a private school. We are accredited. The building is posted 30-07 only. No, I do not carry. The school board says "no". An interesting situation is that sometimes during the school day church members meet in unused classrooms. Since they are conducting church activities in their church building, but during our school hours, can one of their members carry?

If it is in the school classrooms I would say no even if there are no classes in the rooms at the time IF it's during school hours.

[NotRPB]

Concerning protection from Mass shootings etc ...

I've often wondered about a situation where a school allows use of its cafeteria/auditorium for non-school events, such as churches getting together to provide Thanksgiving lunch to poor, lonely, afflicted souls.

Wonder if (1) church volunteers/attendees/supporters could legally be prepared to protect the flock they're serving on schoolgrounds inside the building (premises) on a non-school day at the non-school related charitable event?

Or. (2) in the event some evil came about. would they have to run to their cars to fetch "tools" to run back in,.

And if not supposed to run back in legally, (3) must "good guys" wait for the evil one to come outside the building (premises) ? (Necessity may be a reason to re-enter armed? To mitigate damages)

Mass shootings generally stop when the evil one is confronted by a good guy with a gun... why make the good guy wait outside so a body count increases and why even disarm that good guy in the first place?

[chasfm11]

Concerning protection from Mass shootings etc ...

I've often wondered about a situation where a school allows use of its cafeteria/auditorium for non-school events, such as churches getting together to provide Thanksgiving lunch to poor, lonely, afflicted souls.

Wonder if (1) church volunteers/attendees/supporters could legally be prepared to protect the flock they're serving on schoolgrounds inside the building (premises) on a non-school day at the non-school related charitable event?

Or. (2) in the event some evil came about. would they have to run to their cars to fetch "tools" to run back in,.

And if not supposed to run back in legally, (3) must "good guys" wait for the evil one to come outside the building (premises) ? (Necessity may be a reason to re-enter armed? To mitigate damages)

Mass shootings generally stop when the evil one is confronted by a good guy with a gun... why make the good guy wait outside so a body count increases and why even disarm that good guy in the first place?

This can be even more complicated. A church that I used to belong to ran nursery school classes. As I understand it, these do not fall under the category of school the the TPC. But those classes are regulated by Texas CPS and the CPS directives, under the Texas administrative code allow them to demand no firearms. CPS went so far as to issue an email after OC passed, restating their requirement for no firearms and going so far as to show 30.06 and 30.07 sign examples. The nursery school is in a connected part of the church with locked doors. The question is: if you post the nursery school, the space for which is used as Sunday school classrooms on Sunday mornings, is it necessary to post the entire building? I tried to engage a lawyer who used to work for CPS but she didn't want to get involved, even though she went to that church. I ended up suggesting that they put the legal 30:06 language in their parents' handbook, which every parent had to sign and hope that got them through a CPS physical audit. The basis for my suggestion is that CPS had not yet required any of the churches with nursery schools to put up signs because of an audit and I'm certain that some of those churches are anti-gun enough to do it with CPS as a justification. Where things go murky was that they took the nursery school kids to the family life center (basketball court) for activities. The rest of the church was not posted. I was one of the ones who was in the church building during the day and was carrying. The church leaders knew and approved but I didn't have anything in writing.

It is clear to me that all of these laws are not about guns but about control. The people who propose and pass them couldn't care less whether they do what they were supposedly passed to do. The side effect is that many people who have LTCs are unwilling to spend the time to even try to figure this out and don't carry - meaning that the gun control side has won. I don't see these school situations differently from the Corps of Engineers land which is even more murky.

[NotRPB]

True
This might be the school people's "opinion" on Sec. 46.03 and 30.06 regarding OUTSIDE (where a licensee could carry anyway)

Although I don't think it is "leased" for such an event described in my post above, and it still seems to prohibit carry inside, until an evil person creates an situation, at which time a licensee might go to their car, get a tool, and wait for the bad guy to rack up a body count and come outside?..

https://www.tasb.org/services/legal-ser ... operty.pdf

Leased property: It is a defense to prosecution under Texas Penal Code sections 30.05 (criminal trespass), 30.06 (trespass by a license holder with concealed handgun), and 30.07 (trespass by a license holder with an openly carried handgun) that a tenant of the leased premises or the tenant's guest carries or stores a firearm or firearm ammunition in the tenant's rental unit or carries the firearm or ammunition directly en route to or from the actor's vehicle, and the actor is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing a firearm or firearm ammunition.This exception is not a defense to Texas Penal Code section 46.03, so it would not apply to school district premises.

Conceivably, the defense might apply to other school-district owned property like a teacherage.To the extent school district property is leased for use as a house of worship, note that Texas Penal Code section 46.035 no longer lists places of religious worship as a location where a license holder cannot enter with a handgun.Section 46.03 still applies, however, making it a felony for most individuals to enter the school district premises with a firearm.

[Texas_Blaze]

Concerning protection from Mass shootings etc ...

I've often wondered about a situation where a school allows use of its cafeteria/auditorium for non-school events, such as churches getting together to provide Thanksgiving lunch to poor, lonely, afflicted souls.

Wonder if (1) church volunteers/attendees/supporters could legally be prepared to protect the flock they're serving on schoolgrounds inside the building (premises) on a non-school day at the non-school related charitable event?

Or. (2) in the event some evil came about. would they have to run to their cars to fetch "tools" to run back in,.

And if not supposed to run back in legally, (3) must "good guys" wait for the evil one to come outside the building (premises) ? (Necessity may be a reason to re-enter armed? To mitigate damages)

Mass shootings generally stop when the evil one is confronted by a good guy with a gun... why make the good guy wait outside so a body count increases and why even disarm that good guy in the first place?

As a member of the jury, I don’t see anything in the law that says anything about time of day, day of the week, type of event. Caught in the buildings with a firearm? The defendant is guilty your Honor.

[NotRPB]

Concerning protection from Mass shootings etc ...

I've often wondered about a situation where a school allows use of its cafeteria/auditorium for non-school events, such as churches getting together to provide Thanksgiving lunch to poor, lonely, afflicted souls.

Wonder if (1) church volunteers/attendees/supporters could legally be prepared to protect the flock they're serving on schoolgrounds inside the building (premises) on a non-school day at the non-school related charitable event?

Or. (2) in the event some evil came about. would they have to run to their cars to fetch "tools" to run back in,.

And if not supposed to run back in legally, (3) must "good guys" wait for the evil one to come outside the building (premises) ? (Necessity may be a reason to re-enter armed? To mitigate damages)

Mass shootings generally stop when the evil one is confronted by a good guy with a gun... why make the good guy wait outside so a body count increases and why even disarm that good guy in the first place?

As a member of the jury, I don’t see anything in the law that says anything about time of day, day of the week, type of event. Caught in the buildings with a firearm? The defendant is guilty your Honor.

That's my conclusion too.

So, It appears that, one would need to run to the car, as the bad guy racks up higher body counts, and one could then get the tourniquets Combat gauze, stop the bleed kits, and an "evil-self-defense-tool" he was forced to leave in the car, ( I keep 8 stop the bleed kit things in the car along with other medical stuff, I donated same to the church itself, but keep my "car kit" too"), and run back in with said tools as an "Emergency Services Volunteer" to try to mitigate the loss of life ...

sounds reasonable ... (not) But, sounds like that's what current law demands.
...

[SewTexas]

I think a bill has been worked on the last two sessions, but they haven't gone anywhere, I don't think they've even been presented.

[flechero]

Concerning protection from Mass shootings etc ...

I've often wondered about a situation where a school allows use of its cafeteria/auditorium for non-school events, such as churches getting together to provide Thanksgiving lunch to poor, lonely, afflicted souls.

Wonder if (1) church volunteers/attendees/supporters could legally be prepared to protect the flock they're serving on schoolgrounds inside the building (premises) on a non-school day at the non-school related charitable event?

Or. (2) in the event some evil came about. would they have to run to their cars to fetch "tools" to run back in,.

And if not supposed to run back in legally, (3) must "good guys" wait for the evil one to come outside the building (premises) ? (Necessity may be a reason to re-enter armed? To mitigate damages)

Mass shootings generally stop when the evil one is confronted by a good guy with a gun... why make the good guy wait outside so a body count increases and why even disarm that good guy in the first place?

As a member of the jury, I don’t see anything in the law that says anything about time of day, day of the week, type of event. Caught in the buildings with a firearm? The defendant is guilty your Honor.

I disagree. (especially if I was a juror) You are right that the law doesn't delineate days but it does delineate places. Flip your scenario around and reconsider.

I'm a member of a Church that used a school for years before we built, and had several attorneys in the membership... we've proposed that exact scenario to them and the consensus (their opinions, not paid legal advice) was that it is a Church on Sunday, not a School. Just as a School that operates in a Church building is considered a School when being used for school. They believed the application worked equally both directions.

Fortunately, we have our own building now so it's just an academic discussion for me.

[NotRPB]

You are right that the law doesn't delineate days but it does delineate places. Flip your scenario around and reconsider.

I'm a member of a Church that used a school for years before we built, and had several attorneys in the membership... we've proposed that exact scenario to them and the consensus (their opinions, not paid legal advice) was that it is a Church on Sunday, not a School. Just as a School that operates in a Church building is considered a School when being used for school. They believed the application worked equally both directions.

That's the problem... Places versus purpose/use ... I wish I could agree that what a building is being used for is what matters rather than the Appraisal District records saying the place is owned by a school district ... then we could have a prayer service in a polling place in a courthouse and carry to protect from coerced voting. But generally it seems to be who OWNS the property (place) that controls. just like other Government owned buildings that lease a community center out for some private purpose cannot post 30.06 because the government didn't have the right to post in the first place so they couldn't convey that right in a lease (At least that's my understanding) So if a school where firearms are prohibited leases to a private entity ... they actually have the authority to "grant" written authorization to carry to parents/teachers/anyone even during school hours/days... but in the absence of that authorization, I think we'd be in violation ... (And THAT'S what needs fixing by legislature, at a minimum)
The apparent ambiguity & intent in the Statutes needs clarification.