Traveling In A Motorboat

[casingpoint]

While in a motorboat, or any other watercraft for that matter, are you safe harbored under the new Texas law that permits handguns in vehicles while traveling?

[seamusTX]

Interesting question. PC §46.02 says that it is unlawful to carry a weapon unless you are (among other places and circumstances) "inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control."

Then we can look at TC § 541.201 for the definition of motor vehicle:

(11) "Motor vehicle" means a self-propelled vehicle or a vehicle that is propelled by electric power from overhead trolley wires. The term does not include an electric bicycle or an electric personal assistive mobility device, as defined by Section 551.201.

But don't stop there. The law also defines vehicle:

(23) "Vehicle" means a device that can be used to transport or draw persons or property on a highway.

So a boat that is not amphibious is not a motor vehicle under Texas law, and you can't legally carry there based on that clause of 46.02.

I'm also willing to bet without looking that piloting a boat while intoxicated is covered by a different area of law than drunk driving.

Everything having to do with boats and navigation is complicated and I know practically nothing about it.

- Jim

[gmckinl]

Certainly NOT on any Corps of Engineer lake! There are 31 of them listed for TX. The listing can be found here:

http://corpslakes.usace.army.mil/visito ... m?state=TX

Select "print friendly" if you want to see the full list at one time. As to the boundaries of the Corps property, you'll have to figure it out... I never have.

Example, Lake Lewisville is a COE lake. No CHL, nor even possession of a handgun, there period. What about in the campgrounds such as Hidden Cove Park? Am I legal sitting around the campfire on the park grounds? Am I legal just having one in my vehicle/RV? Since you can't have it in the boat, can you leave it in your car parked at the boat ramp?

There have been previous discussions on this subject here on this board. Reading them may give you some insight, or just even more confusion and questions. Good luck.

[TX_Jim]

Interesting question. PC §46.02 says that it is unlawful to carry a weapon unless you are (among other places and circumstances) "inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control."

Then we can look at TC § 541.201 for the definition of motor vehicle:

(11) "Motor vehicle" means a self-propelled vehicle or a vehicle that is propelled by electric power from overhead trolley wires. The term does not include an electric bicycle or an electric personal assistive mobility device, as defined by Section 551.201.

But don't stop there. The law also defines vehicle:

(23) "Vehicle" means a device that can be used to transport or draw persons or property on a highway.

So a boat that is not amphibious is not a motor vehicle under Texas law, and you can't legally carry there based on that clause of 46.02.

I'm also willing to bet without looking that piloting a boat while intoxicated is covered by a different area of law than drunk driving.

Everything having to do with boats and navigation is complicated and I know practically nothing about it.

- Jim

46.02 does not define motor vehicle nor does it state that motor vehicle takes on the definition from any other section of law. I think this is something that needs to be clarified by code or case law.

It is sort of like the word premises. Premises is defined one way in some sections of code but defined differently in other sections of code for the purpose of that section. I would say that assuming the definition takes on the same meaning as section TC 541.201 is a safe assumption…or at least arguable…But I would not say that it could not be challenged the other way saying that because it is not defined that it does not exclude any motor conveyance whether it be water or land bound.

[seamusTX]

46.02 does not define motor vehicle nor does it state that motor vehicle takes on the definition from any other section of law. I think this is something that needs to be clarified by code or case law.

That is a good point and not one that I thought of. TC § 541.201 begins, "In this subtitle..."

However, if we look at PC § 31.03, theft, it uses the term motor vehicle without either defining it or referring to the Transportation Code for a definition.

Also, PC Chapter 49 defines drunk driving, boating, and flying in separate articles, without specifically defining motor vehicle, aircraft, or boat.

I also think if we looked at the legislative intent of HB 1815, we would find mentions of vehicles, cars, and trucks; but I bet we would find no mention of watercraft.

There may well be case law restricting or broadening the definition of motor vehicle. I have no way to search case law other than Google, and that doesn't work well.

- Jim
Edited to fix typo.

[mcub]

Even more interesting, what if you are living on your motorboat? and call it your home.

Are you traveling in your vehicle, or simply keeping a gun in your home?


(No I don’t live on a boat, but I just thought it was an interesting twist)

[seamusTX]

Even more interesting, what if you are living on your motorboat? and call it your home.

That would get into case law about what premises and residence mean under the law. That stuff gets really complicated, and I suppose that's why lawyers have jobs.

One can certainly travel in a boat. Someone told me that's what they're for.

All of the search and seizure stuff is made enormously complicated by traffic stops. How often do Texas peace officers stop and search boats? I don't think the Coast Guard can enforce state law, and they're mainly concerned with smuggling.

- Jim

[Photoman]

While in a motorboat, or any other watercraft for that matter, are you safe harbored under the new Texas law that permits handguns in vehicles while traveling?

There is no answer to your question. Until someone is arrested, tried, appealed, etc., you're question can't be answered.

We can all speculate, but until all the above happens, it's just that...speculation.

[TX_Jim]

According to merriam-webster dictionary motor vehicle is defined as

Main Entry: motor vehicle
Function: noun
Date: 1890
: an automotive vehicle not operated on rails

because motor vehicle is not defined in code One would use the normal meaning of the word.

And in case the question is asked automotive is defined as:

Main Entry: au·to·mo·tive
Pronunciation: \ˌȯ-tə-ˈmō-tiv\
Function: adjective
Date: 1898
1 : of, relating to, or concerned with self-propelled vehicles or machines
2 : self-propelled

I think one could make a valid argument that a motor boat could be considerd as motor vehicle due to the lack of definition and common usage. One thing i have not read on are maritime laws in texas. Does anyone know how the maritime laws (if any) may affect this issue?

[boomerang]

While in a motorboat, or any other watercraft for that matter, are you safe harbored under the new Texas law that permits handguns in vehicles while traveling?

You don't have to be in a motor vehicle if you're traveling.

[casingpoint]

LOL

seamus wrote:
"I suppose that's why lawyers have jobs"

Well, they're not real jobs. But they do pay well.

[srothstein]

Some of you have hinted around the problem by asking which definition of motor vehicle to use. The answer is covered in the Government Code by a section called the code construction act. This law says that when interpreting a statute, the words have the common meaning unless they have been given a special meaning under the law. This has been taught to me as define the word in the following manner:

1. The section of law makes the meaning obvious to any reasonable person.
2. The section of law has a definition for the term.
3. There is a definition of the term that applies for the subchapter.
4. There is a definition of the term that applies for the chapter.
5. There is a definition of the term that applies for the subtitle.
6. There is a definition of the term that applies for the title.
7. There is a definition of the term that applies for the code.
8. There is a definition of the term in other codes.
9. There is a specific technical meaning for the word that most people would know.
10. The general meaning of the word.

Since there is no definition of the phrase motor vehicle in this chapter, we need to look at other areas of the law. As we go up the chain, we can find a definition of motor vehicle in the same title (Title 10) that applies for another section. It refers us to a definition in section 32.34, which is another title. Other uses of the phrase are not defined, such as in Chapter 30, though it is important to note that Chapter 30 does define "vehicle".

Since a motor vehicle is more specific than a vehicle, and we take the specific over the general as another general rule, we can use the definition referred to for almost the whole Penal Code. This is supplemented by the fact that Chapter 49 refers to Chapter 32 for the definition.

Chapter 32 says a motor vehicle is:

a device in, on, or by which a person or property is or may be transported or drawn on a highway, except a device used exclusively on stationary rails or tracks.

Thus a boat is not going to be considered a motor vehicle.

I will not attempt to answer the houseboat question since there are conflicting definitions in the code, and I could make a good argument either way. I would go with it being legal as a habitation, though i can see arguments the other way.

[TX_Jim]

1. The section of law makes the meaning obvious to any reasonable person.
2. The section of law has a definition for the term.
3. There is a definition of the term that applies for the subchapter.
4. There is a definition of the term that applies for the chapter.
5. There is a definition of the term that applies for the subtitle.
6. There is a definition of the term that applies for the title.
7. There is a definition of the term that applies for the code.
8. There is a definition of the term in other codes.
9. There is a specific technical meaning for the word that most people would know.
10. The general meaning of the word.

Excellent information. I'm obvously not a lawyer but I do my best to pay attention to information like this so I can read the code on my own (I don't want to be one of those sheeples who just takes someone elses word as truth). I like reading the code and tring to come to my own conlusions about it. That is why I like debate over such issues...debate forces us to dive into the code and form some sort of opinion (whether right or wrong) and then freely discuss our opinions and the logic used to derive those opinions. I was proven wrong in this case but the important thing is that I learned something.

It appears that seamusTX had it right in the begining.....good job.

[seamusTX]

Thanks, but please don't ever take my word for anything as legal advice.

I agree that debate is educational. Even members of the U.S. Supreme Court can't agree on the law. How many of their decisions are 5-4?

- Jim

[TX_Jim]

I was refering to the way you logically derived your definition. As I said earlier, I do not take anything anyone says as fact...even from a lawyer or someone who supposedly has an authoritive title over a given subject. And as we speak (blog...post...whatever)...I am looking up the cunstruction code that srothstien refers to in the governmental code so I can come to my own conclusions as to whether or not there is enough information to support what he said.

The law is a tricky thing and can be interpreted in many ways. That is why we have lawyers and trials. One lwyer will interpret things one way and the other will interpret them another way. That is why debate is good. Our country was formed by enlightned minds who could freely debate the issues and come to their own conclusions.