Shootout in South Carolina with video

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Will938
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Shootout in South Carolina with video

#1

Post by Will938 »

Here's the video, what are your thoughts? What would you of done? I can say that I'd definately be alarmed by his body language and taken notice of him walking to his car and then to me. But I don't think I would of felt right about shooting until it was too late. The OD cop just started shooting, before I would of felt the guy was threatening my life, but looking at the video he might of been a dead man had he waited another second.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/200 ... otout.wcbd
Monday, Oct 15, 2007 - 05:19 AM Updated: 06:30 PM

The Charleston County Solicitor says Omar Brown, an off-duty police officer and mayor candidate, acted appropriately during a gas-station shoot-out. Charleston County Solicitor Scarlett Wilson released 911 calls and the surveillance video Monday. She says the video plays a crucial role in her decision.

Wilson would not say how many shots were fired or who fired first, but she says it doesn't matter because the video shows an officer taking action to protect himself.

The images captured on the El Cheapo surveillance camera look like a scene straight out of a movie. Yet, instead of an actor, you're seeing off-duty cop and mayoral candiate Omar Brown.

At least six people called 911 to report the shooting. One man told the dispatcher, "There's a bunch of shots just been fired here. There was a black guy running around and someone's shooting the hell out of him." Another caller described the gunshots as "pow, pow, pa pow" while a motorist driving by called 911 screaming, "Holy @#@#. I thought he was gonna shoot me. I was coming by in the truck."

Yet, it was not the calls, but the surveillance video that the solicitor reviewed repeatedly to make her decision. Wilson said, "I have found Officer Brown acted reasonably and lawfully." Wilson said South Carolina's Castle Doctrine justified Officer Brown's actions. She said, "A person is not required to wait till his assailant gets the drop on him." That's what Wilson says Antonio Rivers, who appears in a green striped shirt in the video, tried to do.

The video shows Officer Brown reach around Rivers as he was standing at the counter. Brown grabbed his two snack cakes and a Pepsi, then walked out the door. Yet, it's that encounter that officials say started the shooting. Wilson said, "It is so ridiculous. I think most of us had in our minds a shoulder to shoulder bump that can be kind of aggressive. You can barely see any sort of contact."

The video then shows River leaving the counter and rushing to his car. The solicitor reviewed the tape with News 2 and pointed out River's arms. She said, "Notice how his arms are out and it appears his hands are empty." Wilson said Rivers went to his car to get a gun, then walked to Brown's Mercedes with his right hand hidden behind his back. That's when the video shows Brown getting out of his car, firing his gun.
The 911 dispatcher asked one of the callers, "How many gunshots did you hear?" The caller answered, "At least seven." They're shots, according to Wilson, that saved Officer Brown's life.

Investigators found two types of ammuniton rounds at the scene. Officer Brown had a .45 Glock that the solicitor says he fired until the threat was eliminated. The solicitor says River's gun is in custody of SLED agents, undergoing testing at a laboratory.

Wilson says the Castle Doctrine not only protects officers, but all citizens. She said everyone has the right to protect themselves, whether it's in their home, their car or a business if they reasonably feel they are in danger.

Yet, River's attorney, Skip Martin, disagrees with the solicitor's decision. He sent News 2 a statement saying, "At no time on the video does Mr. Rivers point or present a firearm. Citizen Brown shot a man multiple times. He too should be prosecuted for his actions."

Officer Brown is on paid leave from the City of Charleston Police Department until the mayoral election. He is using the time to recover from a gunshot wound to the thigh, as well as work on his campaign.



http://www.wcbd.com/midatlantic/cbd/new ... -0002.html

srothstein
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#2

Post by srothstein »

The video is cut and edited at the most important part. You get shown the BG walking to his car with his arms swinging wide. But they cut the part of him getting into or getting something from his car and walking back. At the last second before the shooting, the video comes back with the BG almost at the car. If you notice it, his right hand is still straight down by his side there and I can believe that the officer in the car could see it better than we can to know if it is a gun or not.

In the story, I noticed that the BG's lawyer says that he never presented or pointed a pistol in the video. I agree with the solicitor that you do not have to wait until he is aiming at you or shooting first before you can shoot. You just have to be able to show why you thought he was a threat, and the video can make that argument for you pretty clearly.

BTW, I would say we should commend the solicitor for her comments, but I keep wondering how much of it is because he is a cop, how much of it is because he is running for mayor, and how much is because she really believes in the law. Sometimes I get a little cynical when I shouldn't. I think I will commend her anyway, if just for the encouragement for the next time.
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#3

Post by frankie_the_yankee »

I think that cop had exceptional situational awareness, and that it saved his life. It looks to me like he noticed the BG coming at him with his hand held behind his back, and correctly guessed that he had a gun and was about to shoot him.

He was probably watching the BG approach in his side mirror.

I'd give the cop an "A+" in awareness.
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#4

Post by AEA »

The BG was obviously a gang banger. The cop probably even knew him. I am sure the cop watched him depart the store and go to his vehicle.

I believe that the cop saw the BG get the gun from the car and knew it was in his hand on his return approach. No guessing about it.
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#5

Post by TXGLOCK23 »

:iagree: The officer had a better view than the camera.
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#6

Post by Keith B »

TXGLOCK23 wrote::iagree: The officer had a better view than the camera.
We also don't know what words were exchanged in the store prior to the guy going to his car and getting the gun. There may have been something that tipped the officer off as to the guy was gonna come after him.
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Charles L. Cotton
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#7

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

It's interesting that the officer fired all shots strong-hand-only. It also appears one round was fired somewhat in the blind while he was ducking his head.

I'm not critical of his decision to shoot, but we can learn from his technique. Firing with your head down would not be a good fact pattern to defend, if you are charged for injuring/killing an innocent third person under Texas law.

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#8

Post by fm2 »

It looks to me like he had good awareness, re-gained the initiative (by gaining mobility and getting his own gun into action) and maintained a better position till the fight ended.


Here's some more informative links


ABC story:
http://www.abcnews4.com/news/stories/1007/464059.html

Surveillance tape link:
mms://video.wjla.com/wciv/101507_brown.wmv

911 call link:
mms://video.wjla.com/wciv/101507_911brown.wmv

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#9

Post by Lucky45 »

fm2 wrote:It looks to me like he had good awareness, re-gained the initiative (by gaining mobility and getting his own gun into action) and maintained a better position till the fight ended.
I have been watching the second video and trying to see at what point did the officer get shot. So far I can make out the suspect brought up the gun towards the officer while suspect was running the opposite direction. The officer ducked at that point obviously from the report of the suspect's gun. Then after the officer had fired his first volley, he paused and the suspect fired again, because he ducked one more time and returned fire. During the time, the officer also lowered his weapon to his side instead of maintaining contact. So, I'm assuming that he got shot during one of those periods. Because he touched his left leg when he got in the store and was hopping out gingerly on it to his car.

Lessons learned from video is :
1) keep moving to good cover
2) never lower your weapon unless you are reloading.
3) keep watching your suspect to see what their intentions are, until they leave. (officer could have been ambushed while he was driving out)
4) never turn your back on a possible suspect.
5) read the suspect's body language ( this guy was marching with long strides with arm behind his back; Dr. Freud says he was on a mission like a soldier)
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#10

Post by Paladin »

fm2 wrote:It looks to me like he had good awareness, re-gained the initiative (by gaining mobility and getting his own gun into action) and maintained a better position till the fight ended.
Yep.

I'd give the officer an "A" on handling the situation. He was watching the BG. It appeared that he had a clear view of the BG's right hand and what was in the BG's hand before he opened fire. He took action that probably saved his life.

That said he was sloppy in unnecessarily muzzle sweeping the entire store after he entered. Obviously he was under duress, but he could have done better on that. As has been said, his marksmanship technique wasn't ideal either, but 5 hits in dynamic situation like that isn't bad.
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#11

Post by Photoman »

Man that police officer is lucky to be alive. That "I don't have to put up with any sass from a punk" attitude just about got him killed.

He's double lucky the solicitor is spinning it in his favor.

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#12

Post by Velocity »

fm2 wrote: Surveillance tape link:
mms://video.wjla.com/wciv/101507_brown.wmv
Interesting voiceover in this video - no idea where it came from, sounds like a male/female couple reviewing the video, no idea why they'd of taped their voice on top.

Classic ending, tho - female states something to the effect of "wow, if people (referring to the "gang-banger" that instigated the incident) are that crazy, I think I need a gun too!"
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#13

Post by Photoman »

Velocity wrote:(referring to the "gang-banger" that instigated the incident).....
I don't agree with that statement. The police officer had it in his power, his decision, to prevent this incident from happening. When he made the decision to invade the kid's private space to retrieve his goods, he knew exactly what he was doing. He's lucky to be alive.
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#14

Post by Keith B »

Photoman wrote:
Velocity wrote:(referring to the "gang-banger" that instigated the incident).....
I don't agree with that statement. The police officer had it in his power, his decision, to prevent this incident from happening. When he made the decision to invade the kid's private space to retrieve his goods, he knew exactly what he was doing. He's lucky to be alive.
I have reached around to retrieve items when someone else has moved up in line NUMEROUS times. That was not the kids personal space, he had blocked the officer. If that is all it takes to set someone off enough to go get a gun, then they have a MAJOR problem and need to be removed from the situation by whatever means necessary.
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#15

Post by RubenZ »

Photoman wrote:
Velocity wrote:(referring to the "gang-banger" that instigated the incident).....
I don't agree with that statement. The police officer had it in his power, his decision, to prevent this incident from happening. When he made the decision to invade the kid's private space to retrieve his goods, he knew exactly what he was doing. He's lucky to be alive.
Are you for real?

This has happened to me a lot of times. Where your paying for something and you move liek 4 ft to put something back and right away the guy behind is already there. I'm not gonna wait for them to finish picking hundreds of lotto cards before I retrieve my item back LOL.

Seriously man, if that is what made that punk go get a gun then its a good thing it happened already.
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