30.06/30.07 question

[TexanVeteran]

I have a question regarding notices from establishments.

Where are they required to be and do they have to be weather-resistant?

This question is hecause if a bar I actually enjoy. They have all 3 39.06, 39.96, and 51% posted, but they are inside the entry door.

There is also a possibility of oatrins coming in through the patio in some cases.

I am not going to carry in there, but I would like to know if I should bring this to their attention.

[Flightmare]

Texas PC 30.06 (3) (B) a sign posted on the property that:

(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;

(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and

(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

Texas PC 30.07 (3) (B) a sign posted on the property that:

(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;

(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and

(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public at each entrance to the property.

That being said, a a business is not limited to notifying you via sign. They can also provide a card or other written document that contains the required wording, or they can provide oral notification.

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs ... /PE.30.htm

[Grumpy1993]

If an outdoor sign isn't weather resistant, I don't think it will be "contrasting colors" and "clearly visible" very long.

[Pawpaw]

If it's a 51% location, it doesn't matter whether they post the sign or not.

According to PC §46.035:

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster, on or about the license holder’s person:

(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

So even without a sign, carrying in a 51% location is illegal.

[C-dub]

I am not going to carry in there, but I would like to know if I should bring this to their attention.

Early on when I first got my license I, naively and wrongly, assumed I was helping a business by notifying them of their incorrect, non-compliant, and insufficient 30.06 signs for notification.

What a bonehead I was. I didn't think it through that they might then post valid signs. The same still applies today and might be even more critical with the addition of 30.07. Don't inform a business that any of their signs are incorrect or invalid.

For a 51% sign that is up and shouldn't be just notify the TABC. They'll take care of it. In most cases, the business that posts one that shouldn't won't believe you or me anyway or care.

If they should post a 51% sign, but are not you could notify the TABC and that would probably be helpful since whether or not the sign is up it is still a violation for us to carry in there. However, a slight caveat is that if they are not posted it is a defense to prosecution that might help someone that doesn't check in advance or know if the place is a legitimate 51% location.

[Jago668]

I am not going to carry in there, but I would like to know if I should bring this to their attention.

Early on when I first got my license I, naively and wrongly, assumed I was helping a business by notifying them of their incorrect, non-compliant, and insufficient 30.06 signs for notification.

What a bonehead I was. I didn't think it through that they might then post valid signs. The same still applies today and might be even more critical with the addition of 30.07. Don't inform a business that any of their signs are incorrect or invalid.

For a 51% sign that is up and shouldn't be just notify the TABC. They'll take care of it. In most cases, the business that posts one that shouldn't won't believe you or me anyway or care.

If they should post a 51% sign, but are not you could notify the TABC and that would probably be helpful since whether or not the sign is up it is still a violation for us to carry in there. However, a slight caveat is that if they are not posted it is a defense to prosecution that might help someone that doesn't check in advance or know if the place is a legitimate 51% location.

TABC doesn't play around either. I've notified them of a few locations, and seen the signs changed inside a business week.

[ScottDLS]

If it's a 51% location, it doesn't matter whether they post the sign or not.

According to PC §46.035:

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster, on or about the license holder’s person:

(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

So even without a sign, carrying in a 51% location is illegal.

Technically if they do not post, you have a defense to prosecution. In my view that means it's not illegal. That is unless you consider carrying anywhere WITH LTC illegal, since 46.15 is ruled only a Defense to 46.02.

[oohrah]

If it's a 51% location, it doesn't matter whether they post the sign or not.

According to PC §46.035:

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster, on or about the license holder’s person:

(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

So even without a sign, carrying in a 51% location is illegal.

True, and oddly, if an invalid 51% is posted, it's not illegal to carry past it (but I wouldn't want to have that discussion).

[Ike Aramba]

Technically if they do not post, you have a defense to prosecution. In my view that means it's not illegal. That is unless you consider carrying anywhere WITH LTC illegal, since 46.15 is ruled only a Defense to 46.02.

Reporting a missing 51% sign is as counterproductive as reporting a non-compliant 30.06 sign.

On the other hand, reporting a false 51% sign at a non-51% premises to TABC is still a good idea, to help prevent false arrests by konfused keystone kops.

[ScottDLS]

If it's a 51% location, it doesn't matter whether they post the sign or not.

According to PC §46.035:

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster, on or about the license holder’s person:

(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

So even without a sign, carrying in a 51% location is illegal.

True, and oddly, if an invalid 51% is posted, it's not illegal to carry past it (but I wouldn't want to have that discussion).

Technically not true. See my earlier post.

[C-dub]

If it's a 51% location, it doesn't matter whether they post the sign or not.

According to PC §46.035:

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster, on or about the license holder’s person:

(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

So even without a sign, carrying in a 51% location is illegal.

True, and oddly, if an invalid 51% is posted, it's not illegal to carry past it (but I wouldn't want to have that discussion).

Technically not true. See my earlier post.

What? Re-read what oohrah said again please. Although oddly phrased I think what he is saying is correct.

If a non-51% business puts up the 51% sign that doesn't make it illegal to carry past it, right? Or are you saying it is illegal even though the business does not meet the 51% requirements?

[ScottDLS]

If it's a 51% location, it doesn't matter whether they post the sign or not.

According to PC §46.035:

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster, on or about the license holder’s person:

(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

So even without a sign, carrying in a 51% location is illegal.

True, and oddly, if an invalid 51% is posted, it's not illegal to carry past it (but I wouldn't want to have that discussion).

Technically not true. See my earlier post.

What? Re-read what oohrah said again please. Although oddly phrased I think what he is saying is correct.

If a non-51% business puts up the 51% sign that doesn't make it illegal to carry past it, right? Or are you saying it is illegal even though the business does not meet the 51% requirements?

No I'm saying that it is NOT illegal to carry in a 51% location if they are not properly posted. It is correct that if a non-51% location is (wrongly) posted 51%, you may carry. I was saying Paw-Paw was mistaken.

[C-dub]

It is correct that if a non-51% location is (wrongly) posted 51%, you may carry.

We agree on this.

I was saying Paw-Paw was mistaken.

No I'm saying that it is NOT illegal to carry in a 51% location if they are not properly posted.

I Disagree. This is what Pawpaw was saying. It is still illegal and I mentioned that the lack of a sign or properly posted sign is only a defense to prosecution.

If I'm still misunderstanding your position I apologize. My allergies are bugging me tonight and they are becoming quite irritating.

[ScottDLS]

It is correct that if a non-51% location is (wrongly) posted 51%, you may carry.

We agree on this.

I was saying Paw-Paw was mistaken.

No I'm saying that it is NOT illegal to carry in a 51% location if they are not properly posted.

I Disagree. This is what Pawpaw was saying. It is still illegal and I mentioned that the lack of a sign or properly posted sign is only a defense to prosecution.

If I'm still misunderstanding your position I apologize. My allergies are bugging me tonight and they are becoming quite irritating.

Having an LTC is also only a defense to prosecution to 46.02. So if something is “illegal” when you have a valid defense, then everyone carrying under one of the 46.15 provisions, including LEO are breaking the law, or doing something “illegal”.

[TexanVeteran]

Thanks guys. I didn't expect this kind of dialogue from this question. It is a bar and they do (and should) have the 51% sign. But it's on the same spot as the other two.

However, from reading all of the responses, I believe it is best for me to not say anything, can and that it is still illegal to carry in they. I also believe the sign (51%) is enforceable based on the responses.

While it may be a defense to prosecution based on the location of the signs, a defense does not mean someone will be found not guilty of it goes to a trial.

I want to thank everyone for responding to my question regarding this matter, and please feel free (I'm sure y'all would anyway, lol) to continue the dialogue.