9mm just as effective as .357 Mag. -- NOT!!!!

[WTR]

This really us a non-sequiter. If you're shooting a 125gr .357 @~1300fps and a 124gr 9mm at ~1300, you have equivalence in "power", so I'm unsure as to what the discussion really would be.

If you're talking 9mm 115gr ball @1050 fps, vs the "standard" 125 gr .357 @~1300 fps it's totally apples to walnuts.

What 124 gr 9 mm commercial load are you referencing at 1300 FPS?

[flechero]

This really us a non-sequiter. If you're shooting a 125gr .357 @~1300fps and a 124gr 9mm at ~1300, you have equivalence in "power", so I'm unsure as to what the discussion really would be.

If you're talking 9mm 115gr ball @1050 fps, vs the "standard" 125 gr .357 @~1300 fps it's totally apples to walnuts.

What 124 gr 9 mm commercial load are you referencing at 1300 FPS?

That would be the 38 Super

[bblhd672]

How about when a lighter bullet is traveling at 1800fps and its fluted purportedly to create huge wound cavities?
https://www.novxammo.com/
65 Grain 9mm Luger +P
Engagement: Extreme Self Defense
VELOCITY: 1,800 FPS
ENERGY: 468 FT-LBS

[WTR]

How about when a lighter bullet is traveling at 1800fps and its fluted purportedly to create huge wound cavities?
https://www.novxammo.com/
65 Grain 9mm Luger +P
Engagement: Extreme Self Defense
VELOCITY: 1,800 FPS
ENERGY: 468 FT-LBS

I thought we were talking apples to apples. I have hand loaded some wicked rounds in both .357 and .45 ACP.

[bblhd672]

How about when a lighter bullet is traveling at 1800fps and its fluted purportedly to create huge wound cavities?
https://www.novxammo.com/
65 Grain 9mm Luger +P
Engagement: Extreme Self Defense
VELOCITY: 1,800 FPS
ENERGY: 468 FT-LBS

I thought we were talking apples to apples. I have hand loaded some wicked rounds in both .357 and .45 ACP.

I thought the discussion was 9mm vs .357 Magnum, thus my post was about a commercially available 9mm cartridge to compare against .357 Mag.

[WTR]

The comparison was specific to 124 gr 9 mm and 125 gr from .357.

[Charles L. Cotton]

The comparison was specific to 124 gr 9 mm and 125 gr from .357.

Exactly right. 9mm factory velocities never match .357 factory velocities with the same weight bullets.

Chas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

This really us a non-sequiter. If you're shooting a 125gr .357 @~1300fps and a 124gr 9mm at ~1300, you have equivalence in "power", so I'm unsure as to what the discussion really would be.

If you're talking 9mm 115gr ball @1050 fps, vs the "standard" 125 gr .357 @~1300 fps it's totally apples to walnuts.

The discussion is about factory 9mm loadings v. factory .357 Mag. loadings. It's also about the claims of some that 9mm is just as effective as a .357 Mag. for self-defense. Of course the same bullet weight going the same velocity has the same energy. That's not what you see with factory 9mm and .357 Mag.

Chas.

[The Annoyed Man]

I don’t think anybody who has ever spent 10 minutes thinking about it would believe that a 9mm is just as powerful as a .357 magnum. It’s just TOO easy to disprove. BUT.... what does Harrel mean by “effectiveness”? That’s a legitimate question.....and I carry both calibers, depending on situation, so I’m not biased in favor of one over the other. I think the real questions for someone considering a caliber for personal defense and carry are: (A) is the 9mm sufficiently effective to meet your required level of confidence, (B) can you shoot one better than the other, and (C) do you own a gun in that caliber?

If it were possible for me to carry an auto loader the size of a G19 or smaller, with double stack capacity, chambered in .357 magnum, I’d probably do it. And don’t start on me with the .357 Sig..... Paul Harrel addressed a comparison between the .357 Sig and the .357 Magum in another of his videos, and while it is certainly more powerful than the 9x19mm, the .357 Sig is NOT the equivalent of a .357 magnum. It’s not even close. I already have revolvers chambered in .357 magnum, and no guns chambered in .357 Sig, so I’m not about to run out and buy another pistol, and stocking a caliber unique to that pistol, just so I can have that gun.

But whereas the 9mm is not as powerful as a .357 magnum, I am confident that it is sufficiently powerful for self defense. It is chambered in a number of pistol brands/models that are in the G19 or smaller size. I shoot it better than I shoot the .357, in no small part because it is both less expensive and less unpleasant to practice with it. And, I own 4 different pistols in different sizes chambered in 9mm, compared to two in .357 magnum, so having one that’s the best choice for a given day is easy. So for me, although I do occasionally carry a .357, a 9mm is my EDC.

That said, my next handgun purchase will likely be a 4” or so .357 magnum revolver.

[TomS]

A hit to the CNS, major blood vessel or heart puts all the pistol calibers on an even playing field, just as a miss does.

According to this theory, a .22LR is as "efficient" in self-defense shootings as any centerfire handgun. That is absurd.

Chas.

I believe my “theory” is that you either hit something important or you don’t, regardless of caliber. Shot placement and penetration over caliber cannot be argued.

[TomS]

You’re not getting larger permanent cavities due to velocity in handguns, only rifles. You’re only advantage is penetration depth, sometimes too much penetration as experienced by PD using 357 Sig Gold Dots going through people.

A very good friend was a surgeon before his untimely death. He disagreed with your statement. Plus, you ignore damage caused by the temporary would cavity.

The testing done by LuckyGunner.com also proves that faster pistol velocities do produce larger permanent would cavities and temporary cavities. Below are photos from testing .357 SIG 125 Gr. PDX-1 (1431 FPS) and 9mm +P Gold Dot 124 Gr (1157 fps). Obviously, the photos on the LuckyGunner.com website are not to scale since when printed at 100% actual size, they measure only 9" rather than 22". Therefore, the measurements of the permanent would cavity are understated, but their relative size comparison is accurate.

The numbers below were measured with a dial caliper on photos printed from the LuckyGunner.com website. The permanent wound cavity is scaled up to account for the scaling issue.

• .357 SIG 125 gr JHP @ 1,431 fps = .642" (approx. 1.57" actual) permanent wound cavity;
  9mm Speer Gold Dot +P 124 gr. JHP @ 1157 fps = .354" (approx. .86") permanent wound cavity.

Thus, with identical bullet weight, diameter and configuration (JHP) the .357 SIG traveling 274 fps faster produced a wound cavity that was 81% larger.

There are videos of each of these rounds being tested. There are on the LuckyGunner.com website, so I couldn't post a direct link. However, links to the page where these videos can be seen are listed below by caliber. The temporary would cavity caused by the .357 SIG at 1,431 fps was significantly larger and of longer duration/depth than the slower 9mm at 1,157 fps.

While no pistol round will achieve the temporary/permanent wound cavities seen with high velocity rifles, faster bullets do many larger temporary/permanent would cavities.

Speer Gold Dot +P 124 gr. 9mm JHP video - https://www.luckygunner.com/9mm-p-124-g ... ds#geltest
Winchester PDX-1 125 gr. 357 Sig JHP video - https://www.luckygunner.com/winchester- ... on#geltest

Chas.

The increase in velocity and energy of a .357 Sig Gold Dot over a 9mm +P Gold Dot is insignificant. You’re not getting the hydrostatic shock in handguns as you will with a rifle. A hit to a non-vital area isn’t going to kill you because it’s the mighty .357 Sig. You either hit something important or you don’t. All the experts agree on this.

[flechero]

You either hit something important or you don’t. All the experts agree on this.

What the experts agree on, is that shot placement is key and trumps caliber in MOST cases. And since no 2 bullets travel the exact same path in identical bodies, there is no way to precisely compare. A 1/16 of an inch here and there DOES matter [greatly] when you are inside a chest cavity, according to both of my friends who are surgeons.

Incapacitation is another funny thing... Lots of people have been shot in the chest "A zone" and just collapsed. Lots of other people have been shot in the chest "A zone" and caused further damage and/or death, before collapsing. The bigger the caliber and the faster the projectile, the better chance [however small it may be] you have of speeding up incapacitation. That's why hollow points are more effective than ball- they open to a greater diameter. (and have sharp edges when they open that cut cleaner/bleed more) And why SD ammo is normally full power or +p.



**Now, if this were a black and white academic exercise, that translated accurately to real life with, we'd all carry a (insert caliber here) with (insert brand here) JHP's and 50% of the internet threads and 50% of gun store discussions would be over after pleasantries were exchanged.

[puma guy]

I don't want to initiate a different discussion here, but I overheard a sales clerk at Academy tell a woman .22 lr had as much energy as a
.38 Special. His actual words were "a .22 LR is just as powerful as a .38". After she left I asked him where he got that information; he couldn't specify.

[03Lightningrocks]

I don't want to initiate a different discussion here, but I overheard a sales clerk at Academy tell a woman .22 lr had as much energy as a
.38 Special. His actual words were "a .22 LR is just as powerful as a .38". After she left I asked him where he got that information; he couldn't specify.

I wish I had a dime for every occasion i over heard some clown working at Academy talking out of his hat about firearms. It is amazing the silly things they come up with at some gun counters. I have heard some pretty stupid comments from guys working at actual gun stores as well.

[TomS]

You either hit something important or you don’t. All the experts agree on this.

What the experts agree on, is that shot placement is key and trumps caliber in MOST cases. And since no 2 bullets travel the exact same path in identical bodies, there is no way to precisely compare. A 1/16 of an inch here and there DOES matter [greatly] when you are inside a chest cavity, according to both of my friends who are surgeons.

Incapacitation is another funny thing... Lots of people have been shot in the chest "A zone" and just collapsed. Lots of other people have been shot in the chest "A zone" and caused further damage and/or death, before collapsing. The bigger the caliber and the faster the projectile, the better chance [however small it may be] you have of speeding up incapacitation. That's why hollow points are more effective than ball- they open to a greater diameter. (and have sharp edges when they open that cut cleaner/bleed more) And why SD ammo is normally full power or +p.



**Now, if this were a black and white academic exercise, that translated accurately to real life with, we'd all carry a (insert caliber here) with (insert brand here) JHP's and 50% of the internet threads and 50% of gun store discussions would be over after pleasantries were exchanged.

I agree no two bullets and no two people will react the same. I agree a larger bullet with cross section density has a marginal advantage over a 9mm, and I also agree that a faster bullet as a he 357 Sig has a marginal advantage than a slower 9mm but the advantage isn’t great between the two. The energy of a 357 GD is roughly 500 and the energy of a 9mm +P is roughly 400, that 100 foot pounds of energy isn’t enough to matter greatly and that 357 Sig isn’t going to open more than the 9mm unless you want to argue more very fine details. So, as I said, either will be as effective, or they won’t taking what has been said into consideration.

I’m not arguing with anyone as the caliber debate will go on forever, just voicing my opinion and the opinion of others, experts and surgeons alike.