Would you "open carry"?

[flintknapper]

I've already read those threads. They mostly deal with people OC'ing in VA. Each "sortie" is described almost as if it were an adventure of some sort.

Doesn’t really matter where they were OCing , only that it is in an urban area among the public. These examples qualify on every point. No reports of gun snatchings.

I notice they recount lots of reactions among the sheeple. So I get the impression that even in VA, OC'ing is quite rare in urban areas.

I have read nearly all of them now, I see a few accounts of the sheeple expressing concern, and some even have questions. I don’t see “lots� of it. IMO, you form impressions faster than anyone else I know. But, you are certainly entitled.

I don't carry a gun to amuse myself. When I leave the house with a gun, it's not for "adventure". I carry for protection. That's all.

I believe these folks do the same. I support and applaud you for your wise decision.

But what do you think of the Toledo guy who claims to OC all the time, when it is obviously illegal per the ordinance I quoted and linked to?

I don’t think anything about it yet. I have deferred the question to him. I will hazard a guess however, that the folks that actually live and carry in Ohio may know something of the laws/ordinances that we do not. I would not rush to judgment there.

Thanks for you reply.

Flint

[vonfilm]

I would rotate my Smith and Wesson Models 386,586,27,629,15 on weekdays, wear my Model 34 or 617 on Saturdays, and wear my Model 27 DPS Commemorative to church on Sunday and to barbecues.

Until then my J frame 340 will be concealed in my pocket.

[orionengnr]

Sure would like to have the option...

[RCP]

I also would like to have the option and be able to use my judgement as to whether and where I carried open or concealed. I would 100% practice both.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Took another look at the survey on opencarry.org.

Fantasy Boy insists he and his friends OC in Toledo "all the time". Toledo happens to have an ordinance banning the carrying of weapons. As "evidence" he refers to a friend's account of his OC experience at Toledo's July 4 fireworks display. FWIW, the friend's account mentions that he kept his arm locked to the gun the whole time to prevent a snatch attempt while standing in a crowd. So if this account is true, the friend was clearly concerned about a snatch, which he would not have been if he was carrying concealed.

A guy in Canton, OH claims to OC there regularly. Canton has no ordinance banning carrying. He says in a year he has seen only one other person OC'ing. His post has the ring of truth. It also indicates that OC'ing in Canton is quite rare as I would expect.

Another guy claims to OC in California without problems. Since the site itself lists CA as a "rural open carry state", it's a safe bet that this guy does not OC in LA, SF, SD, or other large cities in CA, where he'd be arrested (and convicted) in a heartbeat. He's out in the desert somewhere between Death Valley and Just Plain Death. So his experience is irrelevant.

One guy voted that he didn't OC in urban areas because he was concerned his gun might be snatched. He was promptly dumped upon by some of the more openminded members of the forum.

A few posters have decided that they hate me, that I am "stupid", an "idiot", or that "I know it all". Obviously, these guys are the sharpest knives in the drawer.

So far, I am not surprised. It seems like almost no one does it. And when they do, in places where other people are around, they spend the whole time puckered up like a frightened turtle and heave a sigh of relief when they get home without having the gun snatched.

Only 28 more days to go.

[flintknapper]

frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Took another look at the survey on opencarry.org.

Excellent!

Fantasy Boy insists he and his friends OC in Toledo "all the time". Toledo happens to have an ordinance banning the carrying of weapons. As "evidence" he refers to a friend's account of his OC experience at Toledo's July 4 fireworks display. FWIW, the friend's account mentions that he kept his arm locked to the gun the whole time to prevent a snatch attempt while standing in a crowd. So if this account is true, the friend was clearly concerned about a snatch, which he would not have been if he was carrying concealed.

I am still awaiting additional information, but it appears the recently enacted HB347 supersedes the ordinance and gives statewide continuity. I am told that includes open carry, but I am waiting for confirmation of this. Apparently you disregarded my earlier advice not to rush to judgment on this.

A guy in Canton, OH claims to OC there regularly. Canton has no ordinance banning carrying. He says in a year he has seen only one other person OC'ing. His post has the ring of truth. It also indicates that OC'ing in Canton is quite rare as I would expect.

We don’t know where his daily forays take him, do we? This is the same premise you have attempted to hang your own hat on, (that you don’t see much OC….so plainly it doesn’t happen).
What the statement does prove is this: He’s one more of the increasing numbers that refute your position.

Another guy claims to OC in California without problems. Since the site itself lists CA as a "rural open carry state", it's a safe bet that this guy does not OC in LA, SF, SD, or other large cities in CA, where he'd be arrested (and convicted) in a heartbeat. He's out in the desert somewhere between Death Valley and Just Plain Death. So his experience is irrelevant.

Wow, how did you determine so precisely where this guy lives? I wish I had that ability.

The poll is simple, it does not restrict (as you want ) a person to OCing only in a “metropolis�. The requirements are that OC be in an urban area of 10,000 people or more, and that the person actually be among the general populace. I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that maybe there are more than just a few cities like that in California.

One guy voted that he didn't OC in urban areas because he was concerned his gun might be snatched. He was promptly dumped upon by some of the more openminded members of the forum.

Actually, two people have voted that way and I didn’t see anyone “dumped� on. One of the regular members there suggested it was a spoof, and gave us a “hint� as to who it might have been. Doesn’t matter, I take all votes at face value and do not require a signed affidavit from anyone.

A few posters have decided that they hate me, that I am "stupid", an "idiot", or that "I know it all". Obviously, these guys are the sharpest knives in the drawer.

I know. You posted this already. I did not post those things….because I don’t think you are any of the things mentioned. It’s the internet, I can’t help that.

So far, I am not surprised. It seems like almost no one does it. And when they do, in places where other people are around, they spend the whole time puckered up like a frightened turtle and heave a sigh of relief when they get home without having the gun snatched.

Apparently, they DO carry. Currently, its running 40 to 3…….I don’t know what else to tell you.

The “frightened turtles� remark, besides being inaccurate…..is a comment made for the purpose of emasculating those who disagree with you. Inappropriate IMO.

Only 28 more days to go

.

This will probably “play out� in a week or so, be patient.


Thanks,

Flint.

[frankie_the_yankee]

A guy in Canton, OH claims to OC there regularly. Canton has no ordinance banning carrying. He says in a year he has seen only one other person OC'ing. His post has the ring of truth. It also indicates that OC'ing in Canton is quite rare as I would expect.

We don’t know where his daily forays take him, do we? This is the same premise you have attempted to hang your own hat on, (that you don’t see much OC….so plainly it doesn’t happen).
What the statement does prove is this: He’s one more of the increasing numbers that refute your position.

I don't see where this refutes my position. The guy OC's regularly in Canton. OK. He says that in a full year in the area, he has seen only one other person OC'ing. Now if OC'ing were at all common, one would certainly see more than one other person doing it over the course of a year. For comparison, blue jeans are common. I wonder how many people the guy has seen wearing blue jeans in the last year?

Another guy claims to OC in California without problems. Since the site itself lists CA as a "rural open carry state", it's a safe bet that this guy does not OC in LA, SF, SD, or other large cities in CA, where he'd be arrested (and convicted) in a heartbeat. He's out in the desert somewhere between Death Valley and Just Plain Death. So his experience is irrelevant.

Wow, how did you determine so precisely where this guy lives? I wish I had that ability.

The poll is simple, it does not restrict (as you want ) a person to OCing only in a “metropolis�. The requirements are that OC be in an urban area of 10,000 people or more, and that the person actually be among the general populace. I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that maybe there are more than just a few cities like that in California.

I know you put a 10,000 person lower limit on the poll. And that's fine. But in fact, 10,000 peoplpe is not a big city, and my reservations about open carry were predominantly concerned with metro areas. OC'ing is not allowed in any of CA's metro areas. So if the guy has been OC'ing regularly in CA, he must be out on the boondocks somewhere.

One guy voted that he didn't OC in urban areas because he was concerned his gun might be snatched. He was promptly dumped upon by some of the more openminded members of the forum.

Actually, two people have voted that way and I didn’t see anyone “dumped� on. One of the regular members there suggested it was a spoof, and gave us a “hint� as to who it might have been. Doesn’t matter, I take all votes at face value and do not require a signed affidavit from anyone.

I wasn't aware of the other guy because I have not registered on the site. Having 2 people out of 40 at least shows that my concerns are not unheard of.

A few posters have decided that they hate me, that I am "stupid", an "idiot", or that "I know it all". Obviously, these guys are the sharpest knives in the drawer.

I know. You posted this already. I did not post those things….because I don’t think you are any of the things mentioned. It’s the internet, I can’t help that.

I know. I just point it out that some people are quicker to condemn than they are to make a rational argument.

So far, I am not surprised. It seems like almost no one does it. And when they do, in places where other people are around, they spend the whole time puckered up like a frightened turtle and heave a sigh of relief when they get home without having the gun snatched.

Apparently, they DO carry. Currently, its running 40 to 3…….I don’t know what else to tell you.

The “frightened turtles� remark, besides being inaccurate…..is a comment made for the purpose of emasculating those who disagree with you. Inappropriate IMO.

I just thought it was a pretty good line that got the point across while staying within the 10 year old daughter rule.

[flintknapper]

Poll Results


Gun Snatchings

Yes, I have carried in an urban area, gun was not snatched, no attempts.
19- (40.43%)

I carry often in an urban area, gun never snatched, nor any attempts.
32- (68.09%)

I have carried in an urban area and experienced a gun snatching or attempt.
1- (2.13%)

I do not carry in urban areas for fear my weapon will be snatched.
2- (4.26%)


54 total votes

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic ... forum_id=7

Summary: 54 total votes thus far.

51 persons responded they have carried in an urban area with no gun snatching event.

1 person relates that he had his gun snatched, he qualifies that in his post that it was done illegally by the police.

2 people responded they do not carry in urban areas because they fear their weapon would be taken.

Consensus: 54 votes, NO legitimate snatchings.



frankie_the_yankee wrote:

I am very skeptical of the guy in Ohio who claims that he and many of his friends open carry in Toledo "all the time". Check this out for the status of open carry in Ohio.

http://www.ohioccw.org/component/option ... /catid,29/

It seems that the state Supreme Court ruled that open carry is a right, but DID NOT OVERTURN THE NUMEROUS LOCAL ORDINANCES BANNING IT. So many cities and towns ban open carry, and anyone doing it is likely to be arrested and convicted at the local level. The site urges people contemplating open carry to consult their lawyer first.

I'll bet you could hang out in downtown Toledo for a month and never see a living soul open carrying.

For some reason, when discussing open carry it seems difficult to seperate fantasy from reality.

Obviously, Ohio's new concealed handgun license law supercedes this. (Ohio recently passed statewide pre-emption.) But the CHL law does not mention open carry. So while concealed carry is OK per state law, it looks like open carry is illegal in Toledo.

So I would say that the Toledo-based open carry guy and his imaginary open carry play friends are out to lunch.

Frankie, I solicited an answer to your concerns (above) from the good folks over at OpenCarry. Below is the reply I got. I am looking over HB347 to verify, but so far it seems consistent with the reply.

flintknapper wrote: If I am understanding this correctly, recently your HB 347 was passed and apparently this brought a statewide standard of Pre-emption for the carry of weapons.

Reply:
Oh no. It's much better than that. All laws concerning firearms have been pre-empted, not just manner of carry. For example, it used to be that if you lived within Toledo city limits, you needed a city-issued card to be able to own a handgun. It used to be that if you were within Toledo city limits--not lived in and since a couple major inter/intrastate roads pass THROUGH Toledo, this exposes the pitfall of uneven legislation/enforcement--you could have no magazine loaded with more than ten rounds. Those laws are now trumped.

flintknapper wrote: The only thing that seems a bit fuzzy....is how it might affect Open Carry from one locale to the next,. I do not see "Open Carry" specifically mentioned in any of the text I have reviewed. Maybe I just missed it.

Reply:
The beauty of it is that it is very subtle. Tucked away and almost invisible, the wording at one point said "openly or concealed." It means no such law may exist and be legally binding.

flintknapper wrote: I remain a bit confused as to what the "posture" is of LEO in cities like Toledo when they encounter law abiding citizens practicing OC.

Reply:
I've only encountered one myself. At the same gas station where Oregon got themselves in hot water one month later, I passed by a Toledo policeman. We exchanged "good morning"s and both went about our day. For those that think he didn't notice, he saw me go in. His entry was delayed as if he held back to let his partner know a guy with guns just went in and to be ready. But as I stated above, my buddy was surrounded by police. They took note. They no doubt memorized his physical description. But they didn't so much as even inquire with him. Makes sense for those that think about it instead of just fantasizing all that could go wrong. I mean, a criminal wants his trump card hidden until it's time to cash in. Anybody openly carrying is almost certainly one of the good guys.

flintknapper wrote: Is there an Open Carry ordinance in some cities, or is it still somewhat unsettled?

Reply:
I think it's just like Vermont. As in, there's no law that addresses it, so it is legal and without restriction. I'm sure the usual bogus laws apply such as no firearms in a public school, police station, courthouse, and the like.


Frankie, I will address your other questions/concerns a little later. I have to go feed the animals now, (and get a bite to eat myself).

Check back later my friend, its just you and me this weekend anyway.

Why didn't we go to the ForumDays?

Flint.

[Jason73]

I would absolutely love it if I could open carry. I dislike dressing around my gun, it would be nice to dress normally and just put my pistol on afterwards without having to worry about it printing, wind blowing cover shirt off it, etc.

If the sheeple cant handle the sight of someone carrying a gun then they should never leave the house imo.

[flintknapper]

frankie_the_yankee wrote:

I don't see where this refutes my position. The guy OC's regularly in Canton. OK. He says that in a full year in the area, he has seen only one other person OC'ing. Now if OC'ing were at all common, one would certainly see more than one other person doing it over the course of a year. For comparison, blue jeans are common. I wonder how many people the guy has seen wearing blue jeans in the last year?

Reply:

Here is the relevant text he posted…. verbatim:

I OC at lunch every day, breakfast about once a week and normal activities in places like WalMart, 356 Fighter Squadron restaurant, walking around my apartment complex (Remington Station), IHOP, Cracker Barrel, AVIS car rental at the akron canton airport, Sheetz, Quiznos, Wendy's McDonalds, Burger King, various gas stations, Super Cuts for haircuts, my dentist's office (Dr. Benson), and more places I can't think of off the top of my head.

He plainly states that he OC’s “everyday� and he goes on to list the places at which he does so (mostly gas stations and fast food franchises).

I think you have assumed that he travels “city wide� and is ever on the look-out for others OCing.

IMO, it is unreasonable to take ONE person’s casual observations (over a limited area) and attach any weight to it.

To address your “blue-jean� analogy: Were this gentleman a Cab driver in the city…..then yes, I would expect him to have observed quite a few people in blue jeans. On the other hand, if he is the Maitre D’ at a fancy restaurant down the street…..then he probably doesn’t see any.

We simply don’t know the extent of his travels. It is almost a certainty that it doesn’t include the entire city at all hours of the day. Only the Police Dept. of that city would be able to tell us how common/uncommon OC is.



frankie_the_yankee wrote:

I know you put a 10,000 person lower limit on the poll. And that's fine. But in fact, 10,000 peoplpe is not a big city, and my reservations about open carry were predominantly concerned with metro areas. OC'ing is not allowed in any of CA's metro areas. So if the guy has been OC'ing regularly in CA, he must be out on the boondocks somewhere.

Reply:

If you want to start your own poll limiting the survey only to a “Metropolis� then please do so. It will not accurately represent the cross section of the population that OC in urban areas, but it will provide you with the “wiggle room� you seek. A cursory search of the consensus bureau of
California will turn up a plethora of cities well over 10,000 in population all over the state.

The person you referred to happens to live in Shasta County (not in the boondocks):

Shasta County is a county located in the northern portion of the U.S. state of California, in the Cascade Mountains. As of 2000 the population was 163256.

I think he’s going to qualify.


frankie_the_yankee wrote:

I wasn't aware of the other guy because I have not registered on the site. Having 2 people out of 40 at least shows that my concerns are not unheard of.

Reply:

Currently, it is two people out of 50…and it has NEVER been argued that your concerns are “unheard of�. You wouldn’t even have to leave our own forum to find that.

The poll, however…. is being conducted to establish the fact that people DO in fact OC in urban areas among the public, and to determine if any of the respondents have had their gun “snatched�.

I put the: “I do not carry in urban areas for fear my weapon will be snatched.� choice in the poll for your sake. I want to be fair about this.



frankie_the_yankee wrote:

I know. I just point it out that some people are quicker to condemn than they are to make a rational argument.

Reply:

Agreed. People are different, and this is the internet.
It does not change the poll results however.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic ... forum_id=7



frankie_the_yankee wrote:

I just thought it was a pretty good line that got the point across while staying within the 10 year old daughter rule.

Reply:

Well, we’ve all written something that we thought was “pretty good� at the time.




Thanks, Flint.
_________________

[Tecumseh]

As an Illinois resident with a lot of family ties to Texas I would like to add that many people have the perception that you are legally allowed to open carry in Texas. At least out here and they are shocked (for lack of a better term) when I explain to them that you do not have that right in Texas. Everyone has the perception that in Texas you can do whatever you want when it comes to guns. Unfortunately this is not true but I think that many people still see Texas as the wild west.

I am considering moving to Texas to be closer to my extended family once I finish my schooling up. I would probably go to UT-El Paso and stay with my uncle if I decide to go to Texas. And I would like to see Texas become an open carry state.

As for me, I would open carry when in a group of people. I would get myself a nice 1911 and a nice Tucker Gunleather rig and go out on the town. I dont understand the point of the nice custom rigs with all the detailing if you are not able to show them off.

Either way Texas may not be the greatest state in regards to firearms laws but you all have it much better than we do over here in Illinois.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I OC at lunch every day, breakfast about once a week and normal activities in places like WalMart, 356 Fighter Squadron restaurant, walking around my apartment complex (Remington Station), IHOP, Cracker Barrel, AVIS car rental at the akron canton airport, Sheetz, Quiznos, Wendy's McDonalds, Burger King, various gas stations, Super Cuts for haircuts, my dentist's office (Dr. Benson), and more places I can't think of off the top of my head.

He plainly states that he OC’s “everyday� and he goes on to list the places at which he does so (mostly gas stations and fast food franchises).

I think you have assumed that he travels “city wide� and is ever on the look-out for others OCing.

Not really. I just assumed that he moved about as someone living a normal life. In the course of an entire year, if OC was at all common in Canton, he would certainly see more than ONE person doing it. Obviously, very few people OC in the Canton area.

A cursory search of the consensus bureau of
California will turn up a plethora of cities well over 10,000 in population all over the state.

The person you referred to happens to live in Shasta County (not in the boondocks):

Shasta County is a county located in the northern portion of the U.S. state of California, in the Cascade Mountains. As of 2000 the population was 163256.

I think he’s going to qualify.

Shasta County contains 3 cities, Redding (pop. 84000), Anderson (pop 9000), and Shasta Lake (pop 9000). If the guy lives or OC's frequently in Redding I would count him as an urban OC practicioner. If he lives and OC's in one of the two small towns or in an unincorporated area, I'd say he was in the boondocks.

Ask him how many other people he sees OC'ing, especially in Redding. My guess - very few or none.

and it has NEVER been argued that your concerns are “unheard of�. You wouldn’t even have to leave our own forum to find that.

The poll, however…. is being conducted to establish the fact that people DO in fact OC in urban areas among the public, and to determine if any of the respondents have had their gun “snatched�.

Any hyperbole I may have employed aside, I've never argued that absolutely no one OC's in urban areas. Just that it is a rare occurrance. So far, I haven't seen any data refuting that. Again, the guy in Canton has only seen one other guy OC'ing in a year's time.

That's rare.

And when I am dismissed as "an idiot" or "stupid", I interpret that as coming from people who feel that my concerns are, if not unheard of, simply meaningless.

(referring to my "puckered up like a frightened turtle" formulation) Well, we’ve all written something that we thought was “pretty good� at the time.

Hey, I still think it is a good line. Feel free to use it yourself any time you want.

FWIW, I am in the process of digging up some data of my own. I'm looking at a much larger group of frequent OC'ers - cops. I'm trying to find out how many get shot with their own guns in a given year.

I'm sure many more cops OC than private citizens because I see cops OC'ing much more often in my daily travels. Now it's true that cops have a different "mission" than private citizens, but it's also true that they are trained in hand to hand combat, are generally not very old or weak, frequently work with backup, frequently employ retention holsters, and frequently have received retention training. The main thing is that there are enough of them to provide a meaningful sample and that the data is objectively recorded as opposed to the self reports we see on the OC forum.

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate your starting the poll on the OC site. The data will be of interest. But we have to keep in mind that these are self reports from OC enthusiasts/advocates. So I would be quite surprised to see a report where someone was OC'ing and had a bad experience (except being abused by an LEO).

Even so, one OC'er stated that while standing in a pizza place he overheard 2 BG's discussing the idea of snatching his gun, though they ultimately thought better of it.

To be honest, that's close enough for me. It shows they are thinking about it. Given a big enough sample, it seems evident to me that some will try it.

I never overhear people discussing such things when I am carrying concealed.

[RubenZ]

It would be dumb to open carry around town. You practically make yourself a target for a BG.


I do however support OPEN CARRY so that if I'm out in State parks camping, fishing, etc. I can have my revolver on my side for the 4 legged creatures etc.

[carlson1]

It would be interesting to know from the people who thin OC is such a disadvantage and they are so worried about their weapon being taken by the bad guy how many of them have ever Opened Carried? I Opened Carried almost every day of my life (in plain clothes) up until about 12 years ago and NOT one time did I have a problem. I have Opend Carried in Dallas, Houston, Austin (Assuming you consider those large cities), and small towns Tyler, Mineola, Quitman, Alba-Golden, Longview, etc. . . I have OC in the bad side of towns as well as good side of towns. As far as seeing how many officers have been shot with their own guns compared to citizens is not even a comparison. The police is placing himself next to the bad guy for an arrest the citizen is minding or should be minding his own business.

[frankie_the_yankee]

It would be interesting to know from the people who thin OC is such a disadvantage and they are so worried about their weapon being taken by the bad guy how many of them have ever Opened Carried?

I have open carried for a couple of days in Phoenix. I experienced some drama that would never had happened if I was carrying concealed.

I Opened Carried almost every day of my life (in plain clothes) up until about 12 years ago and NOT one time did I have a problem. I have Opend Carried in Dallas, Houston, Austin (Assuming you consider those large cities), and small towns Tyler, Mineola, Quitman, Alba-Golden, Longview, etc. . . I have OC in the bad side of towns as well as good side of towns.

You must be or have been an LEO. I would assume that most of the time you were OC'ing you were displaying a badge of some sort.

LEO's have a big advantage that private citizens lack. Any BG knows that if he whacks an LEO, bringing him to justice will immediately become the top priority for hundreds of other LEO's in the area. In TX, the guy's probably gonna get the needle. And he knows it. That's a powerful deterrent.

Furthermore, I have no idea how big you are or what your overall physical condition was when you were OC'ing. Did you look like a hard target or an easy one? That makes a big difference.

As far as seeing how many officers have been shot with their own guns compared to citizens is not even a comparison. The police is placing himself next to the bad guy for an arrest the citizen is minding or should be minding his own business.

I'll admit that it's not apples to apples. As I said, cops have the advantages of frequently working with backup, training in close compat and retention, and the use of retention holsters. They are usually not elderly or weak. But they have the disadvantage of having a duty to press forward and mix it up with the BG's as needed to make the arrest while the private citizen, as you stated, should be minding their own business.

But LEO's comprise something like 500,000 people in America, (per FBI stats) most of whom OC daily. I'm sure that no where near that many private citizens OC. (If private citizens did OC in numbers like that, I'm sure I would see them when I am in OC states. I don't.)

So cops make up the largest available sample population of OC'ers.

It's easier to find rare events in a large population than it is in a small one.