Do you have any weapons in the car ?

Gun, shooting and equipment discussions unrelated to CHL issues

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Sig Guy
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#16

Post by Sig Guy »

mr surveyor wrote:why such animosity towards law enforcement officers?




http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/05/us/po ... wanted=all







Unusual Allies in a Legal Battle Over Texas Drivers’ Gun Rights


Michael Stravato for The New York Times


Keith Patton lost his .357 Magnum in a traffic stop. He has another gun, but no clear answer to whether Texas drivers can lawfully carry handguns.


By RALPH BLUMENTHAL
Published: April 5, 2007
HOUSTON, April 4 — Keith Patton was driving home one night in February when police officers pulled over his red Ford Explorer for a traffic stop.


His license and insurance form were in his gym bag on the floor near the back seat. Under the bag was a .357 Magnum.

Mr. Patton, 51, an oil-field geologist, software tester and martial arts instructor from suburban Katy, told the police about the gun, which he said he had bought hours before from a co-worker for target shooting. Moments later, he was handcuffed and on his way to jail, facing a charge of unlicensed carrying of a weapon.

The arrest might have been routine elsewhere, but this is Texas, where a code rooted in the days of the highwayman recognizes the right of travelers to be armed, and the Legislature has repeatedly endorsed that principle.


Defiant police officers and prosecutors, however, saying they retain law enforcement discretion, have continued arresting and bringing cases against motorists like Mr. Patton found with unlicensed handguns.


The conflict has led to a legal standoff and a new effort by legislators to resolve the issue. It has also inspired an unlikely alliance between the gun lobby, which has long drawn support from the political right, and civil liberties advocates, long identified with the left, in defense of pistol-packing travelers.

In a report issued in February, the Texas affiliate of the National Rifle Association joined the American Civil Liberties Union of Texas and the Texas Criminal Justice Coalition “to spotlight unlawful, unnecessary governmental encroachment on average law-abiding citizens.�

The report, “Above the Law: How Texas prosecutors are placing their own judgment over that of the Legislature and the law of the land,� found that district and county attorneys had instructed police officers to “unnecessarily� interrogate drivers and arrest them or take their weapons, “even if they are legally carrying the gun.�

“It’s all the self-interest of the job,� said Scott Henson, a civil liberties advocate and blogger who wrote the report. Mr. Henson contends that police officers are opposed to citizens’ carrying guns and that prosecutors depend on gun charges to strengthen weak cases and prompt plea bargains.

Like many other states, Texas bans the carrying of concealed handguns without a license. Obtaining a license requires a background check and a gun-safety course. By long-established law, however, Texans can cite “traveling� as a defense to possession of an unlicensed handgun. But while traveling was widely understood to denote a journey of some distance, it was never defined. (Travel on planes and other interstate conveyances banning weapons falls under federal jurisdiction.)

In 1997, the State Legislature tried to clarify the law by removing unlicensed carrying of a weapon as an offense while traveling. But it left unresolved whether traveling required making an overnight stop, crossing county lines or other conditions.

In 2005, lawmakers sought to remove the ambiguity by declaring that anyone in a private vehicle who was not engaged in criminal activity or otherwise barred from possessing a firearm was “presumed to be traveling,� and thus exempt from restrictions on concealed handguns.

Terry Keel, a former member of the Texas House of Representatives who sponsored the bill, explained its intent in a statement entered into the record: “In plain terms, a law-abiding person should not fear arrest if they are transporting a concealed pistol in a motor vehicle.�

But the measure hardly ended the controversy.

Almost as soon as it became law in September 2005, the Texas District and County Attorneys Association signaled its displeasure by advising members that the act did not rule out arrests of otherwise law-abiding drivers carrying weapons. The association said it was up to the courts to determine whether a person was, in fact, traveling. “Therefore,� it declared, “officers are still acting within their lawful discretion if they arrest a person who might qualify for the traveling defense or the new traveling presumption.�

Or, as Charles A. Rosenthal Jr., the district attorney of Harris County, which includes Houston, argued, “The presumption of innocence does not make the person innocent.�

Now, critics of the district attorneys are backing legislation that would sidestep such issues. A bill before the Texas House would treat personal vehicles like homes, where people are entitled to keep handguns without a license. It would create an exception to the handgun ban for anyone “inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle� owned by the person or under his control.

Will Harrell, the executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Texas, said that even before the current dispute, his group and the N.R.A. had been collaborating on racial profiling issues, particularly on what he called a “Bubba profile� that made certain white men the focus of gun checks by the police.

Consequently, Mr. Harrell said, the A.C.L.U. of Texas, the Texas State Rifle Association and the Criminal Justice Coalition filed public information requests with more than 300 district and county attorneys for any advisories on the vehicle handgun law given to local law enforcement officers. Many did not respond or said they had no guidelines, but 13 acknowledged instructions to continue arresting drivers with unlicensed guns or to take their weapons.

Mr. Harrell said the collaboration with the Texas State Rifle Association came easy. “I find working with strange bedfellows more comfortable than with those we most often agree with,� he said. And, he said, “the police don’t know what to think of it.�

Alice Tripp, the legislative director for the rifle association, conceded that the groups had been seen as an odd couple. “Everybody kind of went, ‘Oh my God, what’s the A.C.L.U. doing here with the gun people?’ � Ms. Tripp said. But she said they had found common ground on self-defense as an endangered liberty.

Mr. Rosenthal, widely regarded as Texas’ most influential district attorney, said a police officer was right to continue inquiring into the travel particulars of an armed driver without a concealed handgun permit. “The presumption is he may be traveling,� he said. “Whether he is is a jury question.�

Tim Curry, the criminal district attorney in Tarrant County, which includes Fort Worth, concurred, according to the report, which quoted him as advising the police, “A trip to the grocery store with plans to return home does not constitute traveling.�

Mr. Keel disagreed. “It’s no longer an issue of how far you’re going,� he said. “The Legislature ended that debate.�

That view was small comfort to Mr. Patton, who won dismissal of his charges but spent a night in jail and was out not only his $300 pistol but also $1,500 to his lawyer, Samuel Cammack III, and $268 for the towing and impoundment fee for his Ford Explorer.

Almost worse was the mortification. “Everyone thinks this is the Wild West,� Mr. Patton said. “My dad was incredulous. He said, ‘I thought you lived in Texas.’ �

propellerhead
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#17

Post by propellerhead »

With HB1815, there ought to be a lot less of those cases. Or none at all.

You can be evasive in fear of being another Keith Patton, or you can be open and cooperative and show the officer that you are one of the good guys. I'm willing to bet you'll have less trouble with the latter.

srothstein
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#18

Post by srothstein »

From my point of view, this question has multiple answers.

First, to correct one minor point: technically, to do a frisk based on the Terry decision, the officer must be able to articulate a specific fear from this incident, and not just a general fear of traffic stops are unsafe or something like that. Refusing to answer the question may or may not be enough for the officer to justify this, a court would have to look at it and decide. But, an officer cannot really frisk anytime he wants to.

To give Sig Guy points, he can legally do exactly what he says and should since we should all stand up for our rights or risk losing them. The long term view says this is the exactly correct thing to do and cops should not go on fishing trips (and you are not required to help them when they do). But, understand that sometimes life is not fair and you will suffer for your stance. A cop is much more likely to detain you and write more tickets when you are not as cooperative as he wants you to be. That is human nature, though it really is wrong of the cop.

Cops will sometimes be asking the general questions about destination and where you are coming from to check you for crimes or suspicious behaviors, but also sometimes just to make up their mind if you deserve a ticket or a warning. A lack of an answer, a "none of your business", or something similar will almost guarantee the ticket. Only you can decide how much of a stance you are willing to take for your rights.

On a slightly different note, I do recommend that you ALWAYS refuse to consent to a search. Locking the car door is one way. Just stating to the officer that you are complying with his orders but are not consenting to any search or waiving any rights is a must. I love stupid crooks who consent to searches knowing the drugs or stolen property (or dead body has also happened) are right where I can find them. I have lost count of how many times I was told by someone who consented that he did not think I would really search because by consenting he thought he showed there was nothing to hide. Make my job easy and I will like you. I will also arrest you if you are a criminal. Make my job harder and I will still arrest you if you are a criminal. BUT you might be able to get away with something more than the dumb guy who makes it easy for me.
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#19

Post by Venus Pax »

Sig Guy wrote: Mr. Rosenthal, widely regarded as Texas’ most influential district attorney, said a police officer was right to continue inquiring into the travel particulars of an armed driver without a concealed handgun permit. “The presumption is he may be traveling,� he said. “Whether he is is a jury question.�
This boy is a piece of work. :grumble
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Liberty
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#20

Post by Liberty »

Sig Guy wrote:
packsaddle wrote:i worked for DPS for many years.

most LEO's appreciate law-abiding citizens carrying firearms in a legal manner.
while i know everyone who legally carried a weapon in their car under the old traveling law were not arrested,many were,especially Harris county

many law abiding citizens were arrested and had to get lawyers and go to court to prove their were legal under the traveling law
While some were hassled, a couple were charged and those that were, were too many. I believe the actual numbers in Harris county were actually not that high. The reason was is that most of the police understood the law better than Chucky did.
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Arrested Numbers

#21

Post by USMC-COL »

Sig Guy wrote:
packsaddle wrote:i worked for DPS for many years.

most LEO's appreciate law-abiding citizens carrying firearms in a legal manner.
while i know everyone who legally carried a weapon in their car under the old traveling law were not arrested,many were,especially Harris county

many law abiding citizens were arrested and had to get lawyers and go to court to prove their were legal under the traveling law
Can you please provide cases or numbers on the "many law abiding citizens were arrested ...." comment under the old or recently expired traveling law? I have not heard of "many" arrests.
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mr surveyor
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#22

Post by mr surveyor »

in my 54 years I have known a lot of folks that carried in their vehicles. That's the way it has always been in the East Texas Oil Field...at least my part of it. I don't know of anyone, personally, that has been arrested for carrying in their vehicle. But, then again, I don't know any gangbanger wannabees, ex-cons, or people with a bad enough attitude to irritate a law enforcement officer into sitting on them.

But, then again, my personal experience is more related to the vast wide open spaces of small town Texas (which comprises the majority of the geographic area of the state :cool: )
It's not gun control that we need, it's soul control!
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sbb
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#23

Post by sbb »

Would it be inappropriate for me to throw in a little twist into this discussion? While I am currently waiting on my CHL, I wonder how this statute would be interpreted if my status had changed to "certificate active, license issued" but I had not yet received the plastic. If stopped by LEO how should I respond? Would I be legally carrying under HB 1815 and would I have to tell the officer ?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.” Thomas Paine

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Sig Guy
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Re: Arrested Numbers

#24

Post by Sig Guy »

USMC-COL wrote:
Sig Guy wrote:
packsaddle wrote:i worked for DPS for many years.

most LEO's appreciate law-abiding citizens carrying firearms in a legal manner.
while i know everyone who legally carried a weapon in their car under the old traveling law were not arrested,many were,especially Harris county

many law abiding citizens were arrested and had to get lawyers and go to court to prove their were legal under the traveling law
Can you please provide cases or numbers on the "many law abiding citizens were arrested ...." comment under the old or recently expired traveling law? I have not heard of "many" arrests.
I do not know the exact number,but i have heard discussions at the ranges i shoot at and gun shops about people who were arrested for legally having a firearm in their vehicle.same story every time,charges dismissed,but an arrest record and attorneys fees



I did not research how many people who were falsely arrested ,my view is that if the New York times would do a story on Texas police offers taking the law into their own hands, The National Rifle Association and The American Civil Liberties Union joining to fight the abuses of these officers, and the Texas legislators rewriting an already clear law to make it even clearer,more then 1 or 2 law abiding citizens had to be falsely arrested and it had to be more then just a minor problem
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nitrogen
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#25

Post by nitrogen »

mr surveyor wrote:why such animosity towards law enforcement officers?
For me, I wouldn't call it animosity. I'd call it "Healthy Distrust."

I have had my share of bad experiences with law enforcement. (All of them were in the state of California or small towns in Arizona, none in Texas).

I have been illegally searched after denying the officer permission to search during a traffic stop (This was in a small town, Florence, AZ) (You obviously have something to hide, so I have probable cause to search your car!) He removed the seats from my car, the spare tire from my trunk, and threw the contents of my car all over the side of the road at night. After he found nothing, he left me there. Luckelly, I had tools to put the seats back in my car.

After complaining, I was told that officers may search a vehicle whenever they stop it for any reason, and that I was lucky I wasn't taken to jail.

I've also called the police to report crimes in progress. One instance, from where I used to live in California, a group of kids were shooting bottle rockets at my balcony. A call to the police ended abruptly when Iwas told, "That's the fire department's job. We've notified them; they'll be there in a n hour."

I was involved in an accident near Lake Tahoe, CA. A driver plowed into another driver which plowed into me at 50 MPH while we were stopped. The police report was written, and we were given copies, but that report somehow never officially got into their system. The other driver and I were accuesd of "trying to soil an officers good name" when the report never got entered. Because the report wasn't entered, my insurance company accused me of fraud, and almost sued me. I retained a lawyer, and suddenly "everything cleared up."


Having gone on this huge rant of ugliness, I want to make it absolutely clear that I do not dislike law enforcement officers. Since moving to Texas, I've found that the local LEO's around here are 2000% better than the ones I've been used to. I will always treat them with the utmost respect, even if I feel I'm being wronged. I just trust ones I don't know about as much as they trust me. I don't know the average officer that stops me from Adam, and I don't expect him to know me either. I'm sure most officers, to stay alive, expect the best, but prepare for the worst from citizen encounters. I like to think I do the same thing.

My rights are there to protect me in case I come against a crooked, no good officer. Just like his rights are there to protect him from a no good citizen.
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anygunanywhere
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#26

Post by anygunanywhere »

SC1903A3 wrote:My experience has been that when an officer goes fishing it's not for some arbitrary reason. I have personal friends that are Irving officers. They have a sixth sense aka years of observational experience. When they ask questions it's for very specific reasons and not because they're fishing.
There are officers who "go fishing", and not because they suspect something. Not all, of course, but some do.

There is a lot of information on the www regarding how to handle fishing during a traffic stop. I know my rights and will do what I need to do to preserve them, but I will do my utmost to be as professional and courteous to the LEOs as I expect them to treat me. They are, after all, doing the job they are paid to do, and by a vastly huge margin, the reason we interface with them is because we have committed an infraction of the vehicle code while exercising the privelege of driving.

If I do not break the traffic laws I reduce the chance of being questioned on the side of the road.

Anygun
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ccwtexas
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#27

Post by ccwtexas »

You do not have to answer any questions.

http://www.flexyourrights.org

Rex B
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Fishing

#28

Post by Rex B »

Last time I was pulled over was around Thanksgiving last year. I was leaving my shop in Pelican Bay and headed home. I was stopped a few blocks away for "rolling a stop sign".
Now, I don't "roll" stop signs, ever, and especially in Pelican Bay, which is the only place I have been stopped for that ever, in my life. They know that's hard to prove/disprove, it's a reason for a stop, and they aren't going to write a ticket anyway - just a warning.
So the cop walks up, asks for ID and if I have any firearms in the car. I say "Of course" and hand him DL and CHL. While I was sitting there I watched them pull over several other vehicles leaving the same stop sign. One may have rolled it, the rest did not.
Warning, have a nice night etc.

Thanks for wasting my time, officer. I'm sure they were looking for drunks or worse. Slow night maybe.
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KBCraig
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#29

Post by KBCraig »

Here's a video of an officer in Missouri threatening to invent charges and throw a young man in jail, when he didn't break any laws.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7759&hl=en

Edit to add: Not safe for work or 10 year old daughters, due to language! (The bad language is the officer's, by the way. Real professional. :roll: )
Last edited by KBCraig on Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Renegade

Re: Arrested Numbers

#30

Post by Renegade »

USMC-COL wrote:
Sig Guy wrote:
packsaddle wrote:i worked for DPS for many years.

most LEO's appreciate law-abiding citizens carrying firearms in a legal manner.
while i know everyone who legally carried a weapon in their car under the old traveling law were not arrested,many were,especially Harris county

many law abiding citizens were arrested and had to get lawyers and go to court to prove their were legal under the traveling law
Can you please provide cases or numbers on the "many law abiding citizens were arrested ...." comment under the old or recently expired traveling law? I have not heard of "many" arrests.
TSRA can give you this information They collected it and used it to support the chnages to the traveling law. I myself know of 3 people arrested since the presumption portion became law 2 years ago.
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