doncb wrote:All of the talk about the 30.06 / .07 is fine. Everyone can agree that the signs are not enforceable. However, the show organizer CAN prohibit almost anything they want. They can prohibit cigars if they want to. If they don't want you bringing in ammo (as a non vendor) or a loaded gun they are well within their rights. If they hire off duty police to handle the policy the city has nothing to do with it. Don't like it don't go.
So what law would you be charged with breaking for ignoring the show promoter's rules and carrying a loaded concealed handgun ON GOVERNMENT OWNED PROPERTY (i.e. property that you paid for)?
None, you'd just be asked to leave for violating his rules.
And if I refused? Would I be charged? With what? What if the mayor of Ft. Worth made a rule, no live ammo in city hall. Not a law (preemption applies), but then the Ft. Worth PD checked you in a metal detector and made you empty all your ammo and zip tied your gun...
It's the same as any business. I don't like something you're doing, I ask you to leave, you refuse, now it's trepass.
Would that be criminal trespass by a LTC, 30.06?
PC §30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN.
a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a concealed handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden.
...
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.
Or would it be Criminal Trespass PC 30.05?
30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS.
(a) A person commits an offense if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a building, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and the person:
(1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or
(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.
...
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and
(2) the person was carrying:
(A) a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a handgun; and
(B) a handgun:
I don't see how either criminal statute applies on government property...
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"
doncb wrote:All of the talk about the 30.06 / .07 is fine. Everyone can agree that the signs are not enforceable. However, the show organizer CAN prohibit almost anything they want. They can prohibit cigars if they want to. If they don't want you bringing in ammo (as a non vendor) or a loaded gun they are well within their rights. If they hire off duty police to handle the policy the city has nothing to do with it. Don't like it don't go.
So what law would you be charged with breaking for ignoring the show promoter's rules and carrying a loaded concealed handgun ON GOVERNMENT OWNED PROPERTY (i.e. property that you paid for)?
None, you'd just be asked to leave for violating his rules.
And if I refused? Would I be charged? With what? What if the mayor of Ft. Worth made a rule, no live ammo in city hall. Not a law (preemption applies), but then the Ft. Worth PD checked you in a metal detector and made you empty all your ammo and zip tied your gun...
Obviously you will just be forced to stand at the front entrance and denied entry (civil trespass?) or they could arrest you and fail to file charges at the station since they know you haven't broken the law. Just don't resist, or you will be arrested legitimately... for resisting arrest. You know, like the bogus stuff LEO do just when they wanna assert their authority. Or worse, make up laws, threaten arrest, and have your car searched when the dog "indicates" narcotics present
That's why I will just sneak in with the ammo, buy ammo, and reload, and/or lie if questioned about it...
TAM said he may have been mistaken about the metal detectors at the show. I went last year and they had signs and cops, but no metal detectors, so I just walked in. I would definitely be mad if I walked in to find that I had to dump my ammo, but it may not be the case. Perhaps somebody else who went to the gun show this week can tell us.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"
ScottDLS wrote:
And if I refused? Would I be charged? With what? What if the mayor of Ft. Worth made a rule, no live ammo in city hall. Not a law (preemption applies), but then the Ft. Worth PD checked you in a metal detector and made you empty all your ammo and zip tied your gun...
You could be in the running for a Disorderly Conduct charge - largely dependent on how spirited the discussion got, mood of the officers and whatnot. You'd think the Legislature would have gotten such vagueness & confusion ironed out by now, but they keep missing. I'm getting to where I'm thinking the bungling around is deliberate.
doncb wrote:All of the talk about the 30.06 / .07 is fine. Everyone can agree that the signs are not enforceable. However, the show organizer CAN prohibit almost anything they want. They can prohibit cigars if they want to. If they don't want you bringing in ammo (as a non vendor) or a loaded gun they are well within their rights. If they hire off duty police to handle the policy the city has nothing to do with it. Don't like it don't go.
So what law would you be charged with breaking for ignoring the show promoter's rules and carrying a loaded concealed handgun ON GOVERNMENT OWNED PROPERTY (i.e. property that you paid for)?
None, you'd just be asked to leave for violating his rules.
And if I refused? Would I be charged? With what? What if the mayor of Ft. Worth made a rule, no live ammo in city hall. Not a law (preemption applies), but then the Ft. Worth PD checked you in a metal detector and made you empty all your ammo and zip tied your gun...
It's the same as any business. I don't like something you're doing, I ask you to leave, you refuse, now it's trepass.
No. It's not the same as any business. It's government property, owned by you and I, among many others. That property, which we own, has been leased on our behalf to a business owner, but it is still our property. And, as LTC holders, we have the legal right to carry on that property.
Would you feel the same if the operation of a Toll Road was outsourced to a private business who then instituted checkpoints and hired off duty LEO's to search every vehicle and force people to exit if they were carrying guns in their cars? What about the street that runs in front of your house?
I'm doing business in leased space on government property. I ask you to leave the area I'm doing business in, be it a gun show, a restaurant, or a quilting bee, because you've violated a rule I established for entrance[1]. I'm not saying you have to leave the property, just the small part under my control.
I'm not restricting this to the carrying of a firearm but for any reason. Do I not have the right to ask you to leave? As long as I'm not violating a discrimination law.
[1]It's a black-tie quilting bee and you're wearing jeans.
Jay E Morris,
Guardian Firearm Training, NRA Pistol, LTC < retired from all
NRA Lifetime, TSRA Lifetime NRA Recruiter (link)
jmorris wrote:I'm doing business in leased space on government property. I ask you to leave the area I'm doing business in, be it a gun show, a restaurant, or a quilting bee, because you've violated a rule I established for entrance[1]. I'm not saying you have to leave the property, just the small part under my control.
I'm not restricting this to the carrying of a firearm but for any reason. Do I not have the right to ask you to leave? As long as I'm not violating a discrimination law.
[1]It's a black-tie quilting bee and you're wearing jeans.
But what if there's a law that says I can wear jeans on state property? Aren't you then the one violating the law?
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition. — Rudyard Kipling
NRA Endowment Member
TSRA Life Member
jmorris wrote:I'm doing business in leased space on government property. I ask you to leave the area I'm doing business in, be it a gun show, a restaurant, or a quilting bee, because you've violated a rule I established for entrance[1]. I'm not saying you have to leave the property, just the small part under my control.
I'm not restricting this to the carrying of a firearm but for any reason. Do I not have the right to ask you to leave? As long as I'm not violating a discrimination law.
[1]It's a black-tie quilting bee and you're wearing jeans.
I think you can ask anyone to leave that you want to force out as long as it is not one of those restricted categories assuming your space was otherwise open to the public. What I don't think you can do is have a 30.06/07 sign that is enforceable by law for a person that crosses into your leased property. I think that you could still ask them to leave. If you had a 30.06 sign up and they walked in concealed and you didn't know they were concealed than I don't think they could be class c misdemeanor charged. I think that you can ask anyone you want to leave your leased space though. Consider public housing, owned by the government, you walk into someone's apartment and they ask you to leave. You better leave.
If you ask them to leave because they are carrying a gun, or put up a sign to that effect, and they refuse, you just can't have them arrested, because it's not a crime on government owned property. If you try to use ammo ban as a subterfuge for banning LTC carry on government property you'll probably have no success enforcing 30.06. Most importantly if you don't notice...what are you going to do about it...?
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"
mdwarchichoke wrote:I can skip it and spend my time drafting letters to the AG, State Senators, and local City officials.
And exhibitors at the shows. Shouldn't be that hard to get a list. Bonus if you include receipts for stuff they sell that you bought around that time from their competitors who weren't at the show.
When they start having trouble selling booth space, that's when the promoters will be hurting.
jmorris wrote:I'm not restricting this to the carrying of a firearm but for any reason. Do I not have the right to ask you to leave? As long as I'm not violating a discrimination law.
That's exactly what they were doing at Will Rogers. The legislature passed a law saying a CHL can't be prohibited from carrying on government property (except for limited statutory exceptions) so denying entry to an armed CHL because they are armed is like denying entry to an African-American because her skin is too dark.
The criminals enforcing the house rule are wolves in sheepdog clothes and deserve no respect or support from US.
The city is not a concrete jungle. It is a human zoo.
