BrassMonkey wrote:I am extremely busy from the time I leave the house until the time I get home. I am in and out of stores in a very short period of time. I don't shop, I buy. I have zero time to dilly dally with some store employee over a receipt for MY property. A 2 minute infringment on my time is just too much, and in this country, it is my right to move around freely and unimpeded. orry..
Yet, you have plenty of time to sit on the Internet posting your messages about how valuable your time is.
The employee is not stopping you because of your property, but the potential that their property is in your position. By simply stopping when the alarm goes off and looking for an employee, much of this is moot. By ignoring the alarm and heading straight for your car, you further the appearance of theft.
My children are old enough to work and they're looking at retail jobs. I sure hope they never have to deal with someone difficult if they find themselves in the unfortunate position of following the company policies.
Nazrat wrote:Wow, I am amazed at this discourse. Normally, I try to ignore the general idiocy of some who post frequently. However, the "Live Free or Die" mantra is strong in this thread.
Your rights do not include assaulting a store worker for asking you to stop. Your rights do not include assaulting a store worker for touching you on the arm.
You do have the right to complain about an improper contact. You do have th right to file charges, if appropriate, against an improper contact.
You do have the right to be sued into the Stone Age for acting like a fool and escalating a simple error into a full blown assault.
Here is a tip: Don't act like a fool if the RFID tag was not properly removed. Simple. Problem solved. No real delay. No significant harm.
Escalation of force can bite you hard in both the criminal and civil courts.
Maybe I wasn't real clear. I would only strike the employee if they physically prevented me from continuing towards my automobile. If the touch is a push or blocking my movement I will respond. It wouldn't be because of the RFID tag setting off an alarm it would be because the person has acted with physical aggression towards me. Just because a person wears a Walmart smock doesn't mean they won't hut you. At what point do we reserve the right to protect ourselves? after they take three or swings at you? after we start bleeding?
Liberty''s Blog
"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." John F. Kennedy
frankie_the_yankee wrote: So how many times have you been carjacked?
Never and and one reason is I believe is that I tolorate no nonsense on my way to my car.
Let me re-phrase my question. How many would-be carjackers have you fended off by tolerating no nonsense on the way to your car?
My own "belief", FWIW, is that no one has EVER tried or intended to carjack you.
frankie_the_yankee wrote:
I think I can tell the difference between a panhandler, a carjacker, and a store employee who respectfully approaches me (as they have been trained to do) and engages me in conversation.
Liberty wrote:I can't !! they all look the same to me.
I suggest you try harder. You'd never want to shoot a panhandler or store employee by mistake, thinking they were a carjacker.
Ahm jus' a Southern boy trapped in a Yankee's body
Ditto,
Didn't your mothers ever teach you to keep your hands to yourselves. Sheesh...
And I try not to "Strike" My preferred method is to encompass their windpipe oh so carefully and escort them ever so gently to the ground where they can rest...
Liberty wrote:
Nazrat wrote:Wow, I am amazed at this discourse. Normally, I try to ignore the general idiocy of some who post frequently. However, the "Live Free or Die" mantra is strong in this thread.
Your rights do not include assaulting a store worker for asking you to stop. Your rights do not include assaulting a store worker for touching you on the arm.
You do have the right to complain about an improper contact. You do have th right to file charges, if appropriate, against an improper contact.
You do have the right to be sued into the Stone Age for acting like a fool and escalating a simple error into a full blown assault.
Here is a tip: Don't act like a fool if the RFID tag was not properly removed. Simple. Problem solved. No real delay. No significant harm.
Escalation of force can bite you hard in both the criminal and civil courts.
Maybe I wasn't real clear. I would only strike the employee if they physically prevented me from continuing towards my automobile. If the touch is a push or blocking my movement I will respond. It wouldn't be because of the RFID tag setting off an alarm it would be because the person has acted with physical aggression towards me. Just because a person wears a Walmart smock doesn't mean they won't hut you. At what point do we reserve the right to protect ourselves? after they take three or swings at you? after we start bleeding?
BrassMonkey, that funky monkey....
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Springfield TRP
Glock 22
Glock 21
Walther P22
jason wrote:How did so many immediately jump to "physical restrainment?" There is no store out there with a policy to do so.
Store employees don't "chase" or "restrain" shoppers. Any that do, will find themselves out of a job for sure.
I truly believe as CHL holders we have the responsible to prevent escalation of events if at all possible.
This all has the tone of conversations we probably all had as teenagers where someone would say, "Boy, if anyone ever tried that with me I'd kick their butt. You bet I would. Nobody had better ever try that with me, man."
It's been about 40 years since I've had that kind of a conversation.
Ahm jus' a Southern boy trapped in a Yankee's body
jason wrote:How did so many immediately jump to "physical restrainment?" There is no store out there with a policy to do so.
Store employees don't "chase" or "restrain" shoppers. Any that do, will find themselves out of a job for sure.
I truly believe as CHL holders we have the responsible to prevent escalation of events if at all possible.
This all has the tone of conversations we probably all had as teenagers where someone would say, "Boy, if anyone ever tried that with me I'd kick their butt. You bet I would. Nobody had better ever try that with me, man."
It's been about 40 years since I've had that kind of a conversation.
BrassMonkey, that funky monkey....
===========================
Springfield TRP
Glock 22
Glock 21
Walther P22
Its funny, on another forum I frequent everyone went with Liberty and Brass Monkeys mindset. Here calls for cooperation are just as prevalent. I would probably cooperate but I would expect to be treated like a customer and not a criminal.
This topic has me wondering about a related issue: If you do get surrounded by employees and what if they notice your weapon and they attempt to disarm you. How far are you allowed to go to retain your weapon? Seems like this is the most dangerous situation and could have tragic results if store reps think they need to disarm you for their piece of mind.
fadlan12 wrote:Its funny, on another forum I frequent everyone went with Liberty and Brass Monkeys mindset. Here calls for cooperation are just as prevalent. I would probably cooperate but I would expect to be treated like a customer and not a criminal.
This topic has me wondering about a related issue: If you do get surrounded by employees and what if they notice your weapon and they attempt to disarm you. How far are you allowed to go to retain your weapon? Seems like this is the most dangerous situation and could have tragic results if store reps think they need to disarm you for their piece of mind.
If an employee ever "made" your weapon, there is NO WAY they would attempt to disarm you.
They'd have to be nuts.
If they did anything at all, they would just call a cop.
Ahm jus' a Southern boy trapped in a Yankee's body
Let us forget the fact that no one should see your weapon and all the esoteric rhetoric that gets posted or called out when someone throws out a possible response to a possible situation.
The crux of your post being, "A group of people, while you are doing no wrong, attemps to takes my lawfully possesed gun away"
If I have no means of escape, someone's gettin a bullet. And they will keep getting bullets until they stop or until I run out.
fadlan12 wrote:Its funny, on another forum I frequent everyone went with Liberty and Brass Monkeys mindset. Here calls for cooperation are just as prevalent. I would probably cooperate but I would expect to be treated like a customer and not a criminal.
This topic has me wondering about a related issue: If you do get surrounded by employees and what if they notice your weapon and they attempt to disarm you. How far are you allowed to go to retain your weapon? Seems like this is the most dangerous situation and could have tragic results if store reps think they need to disarm you for their piece of mind.
BrassMonkey, that funky monkey....
===========================
Springfield TRP
Glock 22
Glock 21
Walther P22
jason wrote:It's not theft until the individual leaves the store. I don't believe there is a law against putting items in your pocket to carry up to the register. When I did loss prevention in California 23 years ago, I couldn't stop anyone until they left the store. I had to show they had no intention of paying for the merchandise. I also had to see them steal the merchandise (stuff in their pocket or jacket), out of fear of law suits.
Kroger must only tag certain items. Chicken, for example, wouldn't be tagged.
When I hear the alarm go off, I look around for an employee to see if they want to check. Most people do. Since you didn't hear it, it may have looked more suspicious to them that you didn't stop and look around for an employee.
I would like to invite you to come to my town store and start putting stuff in your pockets to carry to the checkout, ridiculeous!! With all the baskets and ways to carry merchandise you are going to merely put it in your pocket to carry it to the checkout,bwahahhaha. then you conveniently forget about it, walk out o fthe store, get busted by security and holler "harassment and lawsuit!! Man oh man be glad this is America..
Just be honest and do the right thing, you won't have a probelm..Just because we have the right to carry does not give us the right to "taunt" anyone .
Just my 2 cents worth .
I am astonished at this thread. I guess 'Rambo' really does exist.... or at at least that mentality.
Be nice, co-operate with the store employee and go back to your loved ones safe and sound. In the grand scheme of life, it might only take a few minutes and it's really no big deal.
The statement about "no one will ever lay a finger on me" is almost paranoid or delusional. Lots of people in this great country of ours are very affectionate and often touch another during conversations. Folks who consider themselves to be faith based and Christian do it all the time. If a young man working in a store happens to be one of those kind of folks and touches you during a conversation, you would seriously escalate it to the next level ?
Just by being smart enough to have a CHL in the first place, I would hope to give someone more credit than that. An attitude that "no one will ever lay a finger on me" ought to be a valid reason for the DPS to suspend your CHL for mental instability.
And while I'm on the subject of CHL...... have you considered that the store employee might also be carrying under his own CHL license ? Then you would have to totally trust in him to know the escalation of force doctrine if you assault him because he was having a conversation with you in the parking lot and just happened to "lay a finger on you".
Like I said at the beginning of this reply..... I am astonished at the tone of this thread. As a former LEO who rose through the ranks to the position of Chief of Police, I've been around the block quite a few times in my life. In every legal sense that I know, and every moral value that I believe in, the attitude of "no one will ever lay a finger on me" is going to get the author in a lot of trouble, given the right circumstances.
