Sign validity

[rssecurity]

I came across what appears at first glance to be a 51% sign, and therefore off-limits to us LTC folk. But on closer inspection, I'm not so sure.

I couldn't find any other signs and except for the door, all the windows are covered up. Looking at the TABC site, http://www.tabc.texas.gov/publications/index.asp#signs it appears to be an invalid sign. A quick search found some more signs with this language and without the 51%, but they had the TABC info at the bottom, something these clearly lack.

Assuming I actually did want to go in, which I don't, is this a valid sign? I'm leaning towards NO, but wouldn't mind a second opinion. Perhaps this is an old version???

[KLB]

If the business is on the list for requiring a red sign, prudence requires treating it accordingly.

[Teamless]

TABC signs are different than 30.06/07 signs.
if someone "reprints them", in a valid "Gun Sign = RED" location, then they are valid... at least if you are arrested, you have no defense of prosecution as you have with a 30.06/07 that does not follow the letter of the law in size/wording/placement/colors.

Where was the sign at?
did you look up the location on TABC to see if it was a RED or BLUE location?

[rssecurity]

I did look it up, but couldn't get the TABC to return anything. I tried enabling pop-ups for their site, but still got nothing. Info in case anyone wants to try is:

Liquid Lounge
3342 Chimney Rock
Houston, TX 77056

Looking at the page I linked, there is this note: "Please ensure your sign prints according to statutory requirements i.e. size and/or color.". This makes me think there may be some requirements for a valid 51% sign just as there are for 30.06/30.07 signs.

I've dug some more and come back to the not valid, but you could still take the ride. Of course, if a cop hates you, you could take a ride for eating a ham sandwich.

According to Sec. 46.035, b (1) -- the "you can't carry here" -- :

On the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

However, k, same section, states:

It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1) that the actor was not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code.

So what does Sec 411.204 say? Well,

(a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c)...

(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

[Pawpaw]

It is an improperly posted 51% location:

[rssecurity]

Thanks Pawpaw. I never could get the TABC site to work for me. So not legal, but you have a [probably] solid defense.

[Pawpaw]

I just input:

3342 for Street Number
Chimney Rock for Street Name
and
Houston for City

Then hit submit.

[Skiprr]

Well, the sign itself is invalid, but the bar is a TABC=Red 51% business.

[thetexan]

I came across what appears at first glance to be a 51% sign, and therefore off-limits to us LTC folk. But on closer inspection, I'm not so sure.

51sign.jpg

I couldn't find any other signs and except for the door, all the windows are covered up. Looking at the TABC site, http://www.tabc.texas.gov/publications/index.asp#signs it appears to be an invalid sign. A quick search found some more signs with this language and without the 51%, but they had the TABC info at the bottom, something these clearly lack.

Assuming I actually did want to go in, which I don't, is this a valid sign? I'm leaning towards NO, but wouldn't mind a second opinion. Perhaps this is an old version???

There are only 3 non-federal signs designated to apply to and have prohibitive effect on LTCs in Texas...

51% red sign
30.06
30.07

This is not one of those.

All of the following might use such a sign in an informational way...

1. On the physical premises of a school or educational institution
2. On any ground or in any building where an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted
3. On any passenger transportation vehicle of a school or education institutuion
4. On the premises of a polling place on the day of an election
5. On the premises of a racetrack
6. On the premises of any government court or offices utilized by the court
7. On the secured area of an airport
8. Going withing 1000 feet of a place of execution on the day of execution...
9. On the premises of a 51% business...but this would require the specific red sign
10. On the premises of a correctional facility.

What these all have in common is that they are prohibited areas by statute with 3rd degree felony penalties and do not require any signage to be of prohibitive effect on LTCs (there may be other statutes such as 411.204 that require displays of signage) other than the 51%.

An example; under 411.204 b it states..."A hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or a nursing
home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, shall prominently
display at each entrance to the hospital or nursing home, as appropriate, a sign
that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c) other than the requirement
that the sign include on its face the number “51”.

that would be this sign or one similar to it. An interesting note. 411.204, in this regard, is imperative in nature; a requirement of those particular hospitals and nursing homes to display, with this exception...(e)"This section does not apply to a business that has a food and beverage certificate issued under the Alcoholic Beverage Code."

However the imperative is on the hospital or nursing home to display and 204 says nothing about committing an offense on the part of the LTC. In fact, 46.035i specifically requires notification by 30.06 or 30.07 to LTCs at 241 hospitals or 242 nursing homes. So, again, while the hospital or nursing home may be required under 204 to post this type of sign, it has no prohibitive effect on LTCs in view of 46.035 requirement to display 30.06 or 30.07. Also, 411 is the administrative code and 46.035 is a penal code. This apparent conflict with statutes might be the result of the 411.204 statute being adopted in 1999 and the 46.035 notification requirement under 30.06 and 30.07 being adopted in 2015.

So any such sign would only be informational and not have legal muscle in and of itself on LTCs.

tex

[oohrah]

I believe you are in error with #9. My understanding is that a 51% place is prohibited to LTC regardless of whether the proper (or any) sign is posted.

And conversely, an incorrect 51% posted sign (such as at a BLUE license establishment) does not prohibit LTC.

[ScottDLS]

I believe you are in error with #9. My understanding is that a 51% place is prohibited to LTC regardless of whether the proper (or any) sign is posted.

And conversely, an incorrect 51% posted sign (such as at a BLUE license establishment) does not prohibit LTC.

If 51% not posted you have a Defense to Prosecution...

A Defense you say? But I will have to take the ride and bring it up at trial!

Yes...just like you will have to raise your 46.15 "Defense" to UCW for carrying WITH LTC...

[Papa_Tiger]

I believe you are in error with #9. My understanding is that a 51% place is prohibited to LTC regardless of whether the proper (or any) sign is posted.

And conversely, an incorrect 51% posted sign (such as at a BLUE license establishment) does not prohibit LTC.

You have a defense to prosecution if a 51% sign is supposed to be present but is not.

A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster, on or about the license holder's person:

(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises

It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1) that the actor was not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code.

[thetexan]

...AND at each entrance!

tex

[lfinsr]

Are you guys sure that's not a legitimate (maybe older) 51% sign that the red "51" has faded on? It looks close enough to me that I wouldn't try it.

Edited for correction "wouldn't".

[locke_n_load]

Yeah looks like a faded 51% sign to me, verbiage looks correct.