Re-Thinking One in Chamber

[dlh]

Paige's infamous video of him shooting himself in the foot in front of those school children is well-known and available on Youtube. It was never clear to me why he felt it necessary to pull the trigger in that environment or even have the firearm loaded.

If you are going to carry with a round in the chamber please practice, practice, practice! I don't want to be the movie-patron in front of you at the theater when you "fiddle" with your gun and it goes off hitting me in the back, That actually happened here while back---luckily not to me.

[allisji]

Paige's infamous video of him shooting himself in the foot in front of those school children is well-known and available on Youtube. It was never clear to me why he felt it necessary to pull the trigger in that environment or even have the firearm loaded.

If you are going to carry with a round in the chamber please practice, practice, practice! I don't want to be the movie-patron in front of you at the theater when you "fiddle" with your gun and it goes off hitting me in the back, That actually happened here while back---luckily not to me.

I've seen the video of Paige and he thinks the gun is clear but he doesn't clear the magazine, then he releases the slide and chambers a round inadvertently. It looks like he intentionally pulls the trigger while lowering the weapon to either holster it or to set the weapon down. As CDub suggests, this is an act of carelessness. Didn't release the magazine or even check for an empty magazine. No reason to pull the trigger. Only thing I can think of is that maybe it was a habit of his to release the firing mechanism before storing an empty weapon. This was a result of not following the basic safety rules. It was not a result of his gun not having a thumb safety and/or a hammer.

As for the topic of the original post, carrying with a round in the chamber, he thought he had an empty chamber. If you carry with a round in the chamber then you already have an advantage over Mr. Paige. If he had followed the rules and treated the gun as if loaded, then he wouldn't have shot himself in the foot. Those of us who carry with a round in chamber and who treat every gun as loaded know better than to pull the trigger on a loaded gun that we don't intend to shoot.

As for risk assessment, HazOp, LOPA, qualitative, quantitative whatever method you prefer. The only safeguard that we truly has as gun owners is ourselves. There is not a safety instrumented system that is going to prevent a user error or correct a user error that has already or is about to happen. It's about following the rules and having good habits. The consequence is catastrophic and the frequency as we all know is far to often.

[jmra]

I always chukle whenever someone starts with the whole glockleg thing. Glockleg is very likely a term invented by gun manufacturers who saw glock take a big chunk of the market when it first introduced the most reliable and user friendly gun available. Of course eventually those same manufacturers figured out "if you can't beat them join them".
As stated earlier, people have shot themselves in the leg long before glock was around with every type of gun made.
A "safer gun" isn't the answer. A "safer person" is the correct answer which of course applies to the operation of every firearm and every "tool" for that matter.

Now to get myself back on topic, there is a video linked on this forum somewhere of a store owner who got the jump on a couple of guys robbing his store. He pulled the trigger on his 1911 and nothing happened. As paramedics were working to save his life after he was shot by the bad guys, he kept saying "I forgot the thumb safety".
If you are going to carry a firearm with a thumb safety you better practice drawing and firing that weapon until you have developed the muscle memory that allows that action to take place without thought and without hesitation. If that is true with a thumb safety imagine how much more practice would be required to develop the muscle memory required for the much more complex action of chambering a round.
This is all of course simply my opinion which is worth what it cost.

[Mxrdad]

Well said there jrma. I agree. I also agree that he had no business, in my opinion, having live rounds in that gun for training purposes. I think maybe a wooden gun or a toy gun might have been just as effective for demonstration purposes although I really dont know what he was teaching. Dunno. He claimed he was required to have a loaded gun with him at all times, even during this training. Not sure about that one. But that said, there is no excuse for his carelessness.

I can say I do feel confident with my thumb safety. Thank goodness I have never had to try it in a real situation but I do feel comfortable I could flip the switch on the draw. I do practice that at the range and at the house and it has turned into standard ops for me now. Even when I shoot another gun that has no thumb safety, my thumb still goes through the motion.

[rotor]

Well said there jrma. I agree. I also agree that he had no business, in my opinion, having live rounds in that gun for training purposes. I think maybe a wooden gun or a toy gun might have been just as effective for demonstration purposes although I really dont know what he was teaching. Dunno. He claimed he was required to have a loaded gun with him at all times, even during this training. Not sure about that one. But that said, there is no excuse for his carelessness.

Humans will always make mistakes. No matter how much we train or how good we think we are it is a fact of life that we make mistakes. I am not excusing the officer in that video and no matter how much we think we have perfected things we all make mistakes. We can limit those mistakes but never completely prevent them. Please raise your hand now if you have never made a mistake. I don't see any hands.

[WTR]

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2015/06/14 ... ed-pistol/
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la ... story.html
Interesting articles

[Mxrdad]

Yes Sir, I agree and thats one of the reasons I didnt carry one chambered in the beginning. I guess it just boils down to personal preference.

[carlson1]

I have carried a handgun on my person since early 1981 just about 24/7. We mostly had revolvers as LEO and when off duty we a 5 shot Chief Special in a ankle holster (believe it or not I used to could see my ankles) or just dropped in our front pocket. Working deep undercover (started narcotics in 1986) there was not just not a lot of holster choices before the CHL thing in the mid 90's started. I carried appendix before it was called appendix.

After an awful FBI shooting sometime in the mid 80's there was really a push to carry as much as ammo as possible. The semi-autos really started coming out of every manufacturer there was. I shot my first Glock in 1986 at an Officer's Survivor school in Arkansas. I joined that club, "I will never own a plastic gun." Well that has come and gone. I have owned and still own them.

I have went back to the 1911 platform a while back. I never got over it and am happier than I ever was. They have come a long way. I have taken some 1911 training classes to see how it has evolved and what I have forgotten.

That life story was so I could say, "it has never ever crossed my mind to carry an unloaded gun." That is what I personally believe a gun without ammo is. So if you can't bring yourself to load your semi (chamber a round) then go buy a revolver and load all chambers.

About the holster thing I am now a huge fan of not just holsters, but quality holsters. That being said I have never understood the big hurry to "reholster" your firearm and that is where a lot of unplanned discharges happen.

I have not read all of the post in this thread although I have read a lot of post on this topic I think we could all agree it boils down to "comfort level", but that will only come from the training we receive and continue to receive.

As others have stated many times this a fantastic Forum and I am not a huge fan of "regulation", but if you want to regulate something that will help folks learn laws, learn tactics, learn safety, learn what not to do, learn who has great classes, etc. . . then this TexasCHLForum should be mandatory. (I was not paid to say that nor was I given a raise in my Moderator salary.)

[Excaliber]

....... if you can't bring yourself to load your semi (chamber a round) then go buy a revolver and load all chambers.

This is the very best bottom line advice I have ever seen on this topic. It makes perfect sense, is blindingly obvious, and a much safer initial way to go for new LTC holders who are uncomfortable with a chambered round in a semiauto. They can later migrate to a semiauto when they've gotten over their initial fears and have developed a comfort level with the concept of carrying a fully loaded deadly weapon.

There's no need to start with your "final" EDC. I don't know any LTC holding Texans who own only one handgun after at least a year of carrying, and it is never a bad thing to have a good revolver, even if it spends most of its time in the safe.

[Liberty]

Why would a fully loaded revolver be more comforting than a DA/SA hammered semi with one in the chamber?

[carlson1]

Why would a fully loaded revolver be more comforting than a DA/SA hammered semi with one in the chamber?

It is not to me because they are booth loaded and both comforting. As Excaliber said it may be more comforting for new shooters. Not only that most trigger pulls on revolvers are a lot heavier than semiautos unless you monkey with it.

[Mxrdad]

....... if you can't bring yourself to load your semi (chamber a round) then go buy a revolver and load all chambers.

This is the very best bottom line advice I have ever seen on this topic. It makes perfect sense, is blindingly obvious, and a much safer initial way to go for new LTC holders who are uncomfortable with a chambered round in a semiauto. They can later migrate to a semiauto when they've gotten over their initial fears and have developed a comfort level with the concept of carrying a fully loaded deadly weapon.

There's no need to start with your "final" EDC. I don't know any LTC holding Texans who own only one handgun after at least a year of carrying, and it is never a bad thing to have a good revolver, even if it spends most of its time in the safe.

I agree, well said there Carlson 1. I think I will ask your boss to double your salary here, which means your raise is exactly $ 0.00 LOL. For me, it was just as you said. At first it was intimidating but after thinking about it, and I dont mean just a quick thought here, I mean I really studied it. I tried to look at all angles, look at different scenarios that may play out, watched videos, listened to the more experienced users, searched this forum, searched other forums and just weighed the pros and cons. After doing so, I decided to change my ways and carry one chambered. While I dont have any LEO training, I can say I have been around guns since childhood, did the usual gun safety training and had a Dad that worked with me, went hunting by myself at the age of 8 or 9, have had guns almost my entire life, and I have never had a ND. Ever. It just added up for me and I'm grateful for this forum as it kick-started me in that decision making.

[Excaliber]

Why would a fully loaded revolver be more comforting than a DA/SA hammered semi with one in the chamber?

Folks are used to the idea that it's OK to carry a fully loaded DA revolver - people have been doing that for over a century and it's very much taken for granted. The manual of arms is also simpler, as is checking to see if the gun is loaded.

The fully loaded DA revolver is obviously very much the same as a DA only or DA/SA auto from a functional carry safety standpoint, but the perception is different - and perceptions are what makes something comfortable or not.

[ShannonC]

I first started carrying without one chambered. After watching several videos of how fast a BG can have a gun pointed at you and your only movement is drawing and firing, I decided to carry with one chambered. I little nervous at first but I got over it pretty quick.I have a thumb safety on my carry gun and feel proficient in drawing and swiping it on fire as I'm drawing.

[John Galt]

I also was uncomfortable at first, but now it seems natural.