fiftycal wrote:Yep. It's legal to carry a handgun, illegal knive or club IF you have a CHL and are carrying your handgun. Why? Because of this;
(b)Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid
license issued under Article 4413(29ee), Revised Statutes, to carry
a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person
is carrying;
Several Representatives that I gave CHL training to agreed.
What is the charge? Illegally carrying a knive legally?
That has been argued here several times. It was not the legislative intent that you can carry other weapons, and it is called a concealed HANDGUN license, not a concealed WEAPONS License.
DPS tells us at instructor school that it is a voilation, and LE officers that I know will arrest.
If you wanna be a test case I would love to read about it.
It wasn't their intent - but it still says that the section doesn't apply. Black and White "DOES NOT APPLY". They need to add some words in there to reflect that it doesn't apply to handguns only. Look up the definition of "loophole".
I am not gonna be a test case.
However, read carefully the other sections of 46.15 (b). It is clear, at least to me. But don't worry, it will not be me that arrests ya for it.
*CHL Instructor*
"Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final"- Bill Jordan
Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
Won't arrest me? Darn. I need the money. I'd love to get arrested for not breaking a law. Did DPS say what you would be charged with if you had a CHL and a handgun and "illegal" knive? I hope it's under Sec. 46.02. Then, not only will I get money, but whoever does the arresting can visit the Border Patrol agents in the slammer for violating my civil rights.
Course after Saturday, it won't matter as much since you can carry a handgun, illegal knive or club in you car without a license.
fiftycal wrote:Won't arrest me? Darn. I need the money. I'd love to get arrested for not breaking a law. Did DPS say what you would be charged with if you had a CHL and a handgun and "illegal" knive? I hope it's under Sec. 46.02. Then, not only will I get money, but whoever does the arresting can visit the Border Patrol agents in the slammer for violating my civil rights.
Course after Saturday, it won't matter as much since you can carry a handgun, illegal knive or club in you car without a license.
I think you'd lose that one, friend.
*CHL Instructor*
"Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final"- Bill Jordan
Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
fiftycal wrote:Won't arrest me? Darn. I need the money. I'd love to get arrested for not breaking a law. Did DPS say what you would be charged with if you had a CHL and a handgun and "illegal" knive? I hope it's under Sec. 46.02. Then, not only will I get money, but whoever does the arresting can visit the Border Patrol agents in the slammer for violating my civil rights.
Yup. You'd be arrested for carrying an illegal knife. Under Sec. 46.02. That's their official position...I've seen it. Their interpretation is that 46.15 (b) applies only to concealed handguns, and specifically to the category of concealed handgun that you're licensed to carry. You don't get to carry a knife (or a semi-auto pistol for that matter) just because you've got an NSA CHL and a revolver on you. You'd get to argue your interpretation of the law in court.
Well, I have a lawyer buddy that said he'd take the case on contingency. Since he was one of the legislators on the floor when the bill was passed, I believe him.
And "intent" does not trump the black and white of the penal code. So if DPS thinks they can arrest someone for violating a law that "does not apply" to them, I hope they try.
flintknapper wrote:There is no uniform method by which the blade is measured.
One person may interpret "blade" to mean the sharpened part of the blade only, another may think that the blade is everything from the tip to the hilt/locking mechanism.
For fixed blade knives....it could even include the "tang" which may extend all the way through the handle. There needs to be a national standard on this IMO.
FWIW, the Federal law (which doesn't really apply here) measures from the tip to the hilt or handle--whatever would stop a penetrating stab.
Can you point me to your source of this information please (thanks).
I found some information regarding regulations state by state (they vary widely), but nothing federal.
fiftycal wrote:Yep. It's legal to carry a handgun, illegal knive or club IF you have a CHL and are carrying your handgun. Why? Because of this;
(b)Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid
license issued under Article 4413(29ee), Revised Statutes, to carry
a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person
is carrying;
Several Representatives that I gave CHL training to agreed.
What is the charge? Illegally carrying a knive legally?
That has been argued here several times. It was not the legislative intent that you can carry other weapons, and it is called a concealed HANDGUN license, not a concealed WEAPONS License.
DPS tells us at instructor school that it is a voilation, and LE officers that I know will arrest.
If you wanna be a test case I would love to read about it.
It wasn't their intent - but it still says that the section doesn't apply. Black and White "DOES NOT APPLY". They need to add some words in there to reflect that it doesn't apply to handguns only. Look up the definition of "loophole".
I am not gonna be a test case.
However, read carefully the other sections of 46.15 (b). It is clear, at least to me. But don't worry, it will not be me that arrests ya for it.
46.15 (b) (6) states that 46.02 does not apply if you're carrying a handgun. Okay - that's fair. Now go back to 46.02. What does that say? Illegal to carry handguns knives clubs etc. 46.15 doesn't exempt one part of 46.02, but the whole thing if you have your gun.
I think it was an oversight - but who knows. MAybe the legislators wanted to give CHL holders the ability to carry a secondary non-lethal weapon (Asp, not knife obviously)
I guess I'm just playing devils advocate here because I don't carry a knife, but I would like to carry an ASP but don't because I don't want to be a test case either.
mcub wrote:I've jet to hear a decent explanation of why there is a separate Revolver class, which excludes semi-auto. Sure Semi's can have more ammo and the trigger is easier to pull, but either your reckless are your not.
My assumption has always been that a pistol is more complicated than a revolver. Proficiency with a revolver doesn't indicate proficiency with a pistol. I could be wrong. That's just the way I see it.
mcub wrote:I've jet to hear a decent explanation of why there is a separate Revolver class, which excludes semi-auto. Sure Semi's can have more ammo and the trigger is easier to pull, but either your reckless are your not.
My assumption has always been that a pistol is more complicated than a revolver. Proficiency with a revolver doesn't indicate proficiency with a pistol. I could be wrong. That's just the way I see it.
Shooting them safely is the the same thing. I've been around long guns all my life, I understand the mechanisms of a Semi auto pretty well. The last time I handled a revolver I dumped the ammo all over the ground. .. For me a semi is a lot easier to handle. But the state of Texas says I can legally carry concealed a revolver. Why not the other way around
The 4 safety rules still remain the same whether its a semi or revolver. Shooting them the principles are pretty much the same. Aim squeeze and bang.
Liberty''s Blog
"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." John F. Kennedy
I agree with you that the intent of the legislature was never to allow the carrying of illegal knives or clubs, just because you had a CHL and a pistol on you. I also agree that DPS is teaching the law the way you stated and their troopers would arrest for it.
But, if I understand the process properly, the only time a court looks at legislative intent is when they are trying to clarify a vague section of the law. And I do not see any vagueness in this section of the law. It is clearly written that the section does not apply. This is what is known as the law of unintended consequences. Usually it does work against us, but sometimes it can be in our favor too.
I do not advise anyone to be the test case, because there are some DA's and judges that will ignore the written law for what they believe, and they might use the argument of legislative intent. I think you would win on appeal, but that is a long time and a lot of money down the road.
But it also is a great example of why I do not think DPS is really the pre-eminent authority on law enforcement in this state. They will play politics with their interpretations and classes.
fiftycal wrote:Yep. It's legal to carry a handgun, illegal knive or club IF you have a CHL and are carrying your handgun. Why? Because of this;
(b)Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid
license issued under Article 4413(29ee), Revised Statutes, to carry
a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person
is carrying;
Several Representatives that I gave CHL training to agreed.
What is the charge? Illegally carrying a knive legally?
That has been argued here several times. It was not the legislative intent that you can carry other weapons, and it is called a concealed HANDGUN license, not a concealed WEAPONS License.
DPS tells us at instructor school that it is a voilation, and LE officers that I know will arrest.
If you wanna be a test case I would love to read about it.
Prior to the change in 46.15 with regards to traveling, was it legal to carry an illegal knife or club while "Traveling"?
flintknapper wrote:There is no uniform method by which the blade is measured.
One person may interpret "blade" to mean the sharpened part of the blade only, another may think that the blade is everything from the tip to the hilt/locking mechanism.
For fixed blade knives....it could even include the "tang" which may extend all the way through the handle. There needs to be a national standard on this IMO.
FWIW, the Federal law (which doesn't really apply here) measures from the tip to the hilt or handle--whatever would stop a penetrating stab.
Can you point me to your source of this information please (thanks).
I found some information regarding regulations state by state (they vary widely), but nothing federal.
OK, I couldn't find a written reference, but I did come across these general measurement guidelines from the American Knife and Tool institute. These were recommendations for law enforcement at the time they were written. I belive they were adopted, but perhaps not in a statutory sense. http://www.akti.org/PDFS/AKTIProto.pdf
I agree with you that the intent of the legislature was never to allow the carrying of illegal knives or clubs, just because you had a CHL and a pistol on you. I also agree that DPS is teaching the law the way you stated and their troopers would arrest for it.
But, if I understand the process properly, the only time a court looks at legislative intent is when they are trying to clarify a vague section of the law. And I do not see any vagueness in this section of the law. It is clearly written that the section does not apply. This is what is known as the law of unintended consequences. Usually it does work against us, but sometimes it can be in our favor too.
I do not advise anyone to be the test case, because there are some DA's and judges that will ignore the written law for what they believe, and they might use the argument of legislative intent. I think you would win on appeal, but that is a long time and a lot of money down the road.
But it also is a great example of why I do not think DPS is really the pre-eminent authority on law enforcement in this state. They will play politics with their interpretations and classes.
Thanks for spelling this out so clearly. I think one of the issues with this is that one court it won't necessarily set a legal precedence. The traveling laws situation is an example where one court says one thing and another sees it another way.
Liberty''s Blog
"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." John F. Kennedy
I am scared of empty guns and keep mine loaded at all times. The family knows the guns are loaded and treats them with respect. Loaded guns cause few accidents; empty guns kill people every year. -Elmer Keith. 1961
fiftycal wrote:Yep. It's legal to carry a handgun, illegal knive or club IF you have a CHL and are carrying your handgun. Why? Because of this;
(b)Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid
license issued under Article 4413(29ee), Revised Statutes, to carry
a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person
is carrying;
Several Representatives that I gave CHL training to agreed.
What is the charge? Illegally carrying a knive legally?
That has been argued here several times. It was not the legislative intent that you can carry other weapons, and it is called a concealed HANDGUN license, not a concealed WEAPONS License.
DPS tells us at instructor school that it is a voilation, and LE officers that I know will arrest.
If you wanna be a test case I would love to read about it.
It wasn't their intent - but ...............
When a buisness owner posts an improper 30.06 and someone says..."its clear their intent", we still disregard the sign because "Intent" doesn't matter, but when the code seems to have an unintended consequence, the "Intent of the Legislature" is taken into account?
