My instructor said....

[The Annoyed Man]

I responded HERE to someone who repeated a wrong thing his instructor told him about CHL/LTC law.

FWIW- My instructor said if you are passenger and the LEO asks you how you're doing then you are required to present LTC.

Your instructor was wrong. It is not a requirement unless asked for ID.

I am struck by the possibilities. One possibility is that the respondent simply misremembered what his instructor told his class. Another possibility is that the instructor gave the class incorrect information - perhaps motivated by his/her own prejudices in the matter of licensee conduct. Or worse, perhaps the instructor's own ignorance is being handed down, which is not excusable.

Please believe me..... I am NOT trying to call out the person who made that statement, because Lord knows that my own memory is not always perfect, and if I unknowingly repeat something incorrect out of ignorance because my "source" misled me, then I am acting in good faith, even if I'm wrong on the fact. BUT......WE all know where to find the relevant law if we are uncertain about its particulars, so there isn't a whole lot of wiggle room for ignorance about it if we are self-aware enough to be honest about our uncertainty. However, there is also the natural tendency to assume that our instructors are repeating the word to us accurately, straight from the mountain, so the urge to fact-check for ourselves is thus diminished.

It occurred to me that, over the 8-1/2 years that I've been a member here, I have seen a LOT of "my instructor said [followed by incorrect information]" situations, and it makes me wonder if the state does enough auditing of the LTC classes to ensure that the information being taught is accurate. Whether or not I think the state ought to be involved in the first place in charging money for permission to exercise a right is a whole other argument, for another thread than this one; so let's just set that aside for the moment. But given the existence of LTC licensing and instructor licensing requirements that we have to deal with in real life, it concerns me that the state is probably turning out some instructors who are either not exercising their instructor responsibilities in good faith, or were not particularly good students in their instructor classes and are passing along their ignorance with their students. An example of this is the recent thread on "special" people during range qualifications, and how some instructors bend the rules.

Here's a partial list of the kinds of thing I'm talking about:

• [My instructor said] "you MUST show your CHL to any officer." (Not true.....you must show CHL/LTC only if asked for ID.)
• [My instructor said] "you can lose your license for failure to show the officer your license when asked for ID." (Not true.....the penalty for failure to show your CHL/TDL was removed from the law a few years ago.)
• [My instructor said] "you cannot use your firearm in defense of property." (Not true....you CAN used your firearm in defense of property, but wisdom may be lacking in a decision to rack up $50,000 in legal bills for shooting a thief to keep a $500 television from being stolen.)
• [My instructor said] "you cannot carry in a courthouse." (Not true.......you CAN carry in a courthouse, but you can't carry in a courtroom, or in the offices of the court.....but you can certainly carry in the county tax office located in the same building for instance.)
• [My instructor said] "a non-compliant 30.06 sign still has force of law." (Not true......if it is non-compliant, it has no force of law......but that doesn't mean that you'll beat the ride.)

Etc., etc., etc.

Do you guys see a problem with this kind of thing, and if so, what if anything do you think is the remedy? Personally, I see a problem, and it isn't just because a badly informed license holder might unintentionally violate the law out of ignorance. As we keep reminding ourselves on these pages, we are, among other things, ambassadors for firearms carry and ownership to the rest of the non gun-owning/carrying world. Our license confers a certain status based on the assumption that WE are properly informed, by the state no less, and that therefore, when we inform others, we are speaking the truth to them. When we misinform others, we do so at OUR own peril......and maybe theirs as well. I'm generally not in favor of growing a bureaucracy, but I begin to wonder if the addition of some auditing personnel might not be justifiable, if that will ensure that instructors do not disseminate incorrect information.....regardless of the reasons.

Of course, we can always dispense with the whole thing and move to Constitutional Carry, but I would like to keep THIS thread focused on whether or not there is a problem with bad instructors, and what can or should be done about it - if anything.

Discuss......

[Legionnaire]

Excellent observation and question. I'm relatively new to Texas and relatively new to this forum. Securing my CHL (or rather LTC) was something I did as soon as I was able. But I am not at all new to such processes, having successfully negotiated the process of securing a non-restricted carry license in New York State (I do NOT "luv NY") years ago, Pennsylvania (subsequently and far more easily), and Utah (non-resident) before moving to Texas.

In every instance (except PA where training is not required), the instructor said or suggested things that just aren't so. I don't recall the number of hours required in NY or Utah, but my sense there as here is that due to the state's mandating the duration of the training, the instructors feel like they need to fill the time. And since there really isn't all that much that needs to be said (there are a few really important things that need to be repeatedly emphasized), the instructors talked too much just to fill the time. And it's easy to be incorrect when you're talking filler.

I think "gun people" understand that the training that goes with qualifying for a license/permit is the necessary minimum. We take seriously knowing the law, and we learn the best resources to help us do the necessary research. One should expect CHL/LTC training to emphasize the basics and do so accurately. It's when instructors need to fill time that they easily drift into inaccuracy. I gotta say that my TX training was about 60% wasted time. It was truly painful. I'm sure the instructor is a great guy, and I would happily spend a day at the range with him and enjoy some time at a watering hole following. But during the course he was definitely reaching to fill time without enough important stuff to say.

Solution? Spend more time on the technical aspect of shooting and less on the legal. Cover the latter accurately and concisely. Repeat. But spend more of the required time on safe gun handling, various types and sizes of firearms, and range time. That part of the training could be expanded easily, interestingly, and with more room for opinion (e.g., I like .40 better than 9mm because ...) without getting into stuff that "just isn't so."

[Jusme]

I too have noticed a lot of, at least reportedly, bad information passed on through CHL instructors. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to know for certain that the information itself was incorrectly given, or whether the student, misinterpreted the information. The only way to be certain, would be if the instructor gave out written information as part the class, and that information was proven to be false.
I took a lot of time to read as much as I could regarding the CHL laws as they were written, prior to taking my class. I do not recall my instructor saying anything that I would consider "bad" or incorrect, regarding use of force, prohibited locations, or carry laws in general.
I do know that there were a lot of questions from some of the other students, and from all that I can remember, the answers given by the instructor, coincided with what I knew about the law.

You have to remember that instructors are human, and therefore subject to imperfections. But as we all remember from childhood where something was whispered to one person, and the phrase went around the room, what got back to the original person, was very seldom close to the actual phrase.

I don't know that there is a major issue, with bad information, because as you pointed out, some of the misinformation, comes from changes made to the laws, so it could just be a matter of instructors not staying current on the changes. Biases could also play a part, depending on the instructor's background either in military, or law enforcement.

I think one of the main issues, is simply people forgetting exactly what they were told by their instructors, and possibly getting bad information from others, that sounded similar to what they remembered from their class.JMHO

[Liberty]

There are two things an instructor can do to help untangle the confusion of complex rules and laws. First is to give the student the latest CHL-16, and to inform them that it can easily be found on-line. The second thing they can do is to give them the TexasCHLforum URL. We are given a lot of information to absorb at the CHL class, and the laws and rules change at least every 2 years. This forum is the best resource that CHL/LTC holders to get a handle on the often confusing laws and how they apply.

[The Annoyed Man]

Jusme, Yeah, I fully concede that what shows up here on these pages may be nothing more than incorrect recitation of what was correctly taught in the class....and maybe the instructors are 100% perfect in what and how they teach the curriculum. But I think that 100% perfection in the instructor cadre is neither a realistic expectation (like you said, we're all human), nor do I think perfection is what happens. There's always a bad apple in every barrel, and even one bad apple can taint the reputation of the rest - even though that taint may not be deserved. Perhaps as an alternative to increased scrutiny from the state (something which I philosophically oppose in most cases for almost anything) someone should start a sort of trade association for LTC instructors, that "self-polices" its membership to maintain the quality of the instruction their students receive. Heck, my wife was VP of California's state association of dental assistants back when I met her. It's an NGO, like the AMA or ADA, with no power of law behind it, but among the benefits of membership, they had programs of continuing education to help working dental assistants maintain their proficiency so that they would do well when it came time to renew their licenses, and so they could stay current on the changing technologies involved. I also realize that for most instructors, LTC classes are a labor of love so to speak, and the classes are not their primary source of income. Some even operate at a break-even level, and do it just for reasons of encouraging and upholding the RKBA. That is to be commended, and I wouldn't want to see anything happen that would drive those worthies out of the business. So I don't claim to know what the solutions are, or even if we need a solution at all. Maybe this is a "answer looking for a question" kind of thing. I don't know. All I know is that it is common to see falsehoods repeated about LTC law, no matter how innocently offered.

That part of the training could be expanded easily, interestingly, and with more room for opinion (e.g., I like .40 better than 9mm because ...) without getting into stuff that "just isn't so."

Please, not another caliber war! We are already worn down by the .45 vs 9mm debate!

[goose]

I think that it is a multifaceted issue. My first thought is that it is as simple as the old "telephone" game where you line up 20 kids, whisper one thing in the first ear and pass it down. It never comes out the same way it went in. (edit: Jusme typed it up better) The State of Texas comes up with its requirements. There is training where the State trains the trainers. Then the trainers train the CHL instructors. Finally the CHL instructors train the licensees. Each step is going to introduce subtle biases. Even if unintended, people will tend to hear things that they want to hear.

Grampa Joe always said firearms should be handled this way, so the listener tries to fit the State's message into Grampa Joe's scenario. Some folks will rightly use it as an opportunity to test Grampa Joe's thoughts but many will not. Many folks will look for ways to twist the information to validate long held beliefs.

If the Instructor had their Uncle Tim with ideas, then the CHL applicant has Grampa Joe, we're two levels deep on biases.

I also suspect that there is a fair amount of "If I claim my CHL instructor said it, I'll carry more weight in this debate." And the poor CHL instructor never said squat.

[Liberty]

Jusme, Yeah, I fully concede that what shows up here on these pages may be nothing more than incorrect recitation of what was correctly taught in the class....and maybe the instructors are 100% perfect in what and how they teach the curriculum.

What shows up on these pages is somewhat "self correcting" particularly if one learns the cast of characters.

[The Annoyed Man]

There are two things an instructor can do to help untangle the confusion of complex rules and laws. First is to give the student the latest CHL-16, and to inform them that it can easily be found on-line. The second thing they can do is to give them the TexasCHLforum URL. We are given a lot of information to absorb at the CHL class, and the laws and rules change at least every 2 years. This forum is the best resource that CHL/LTC holders to get a handle on the often confusing laws and how they apply.

Those are good suggestions. I can't speak to current practices (I don't renew until 10/05/17, and as I recall, a renewal class is no longer required?), but I do always download and keep a PDF copy of CHL-16, and I often refer to the published code online. My problem is an aging brain in someone who most certainly DID inhale back in the dark ages, and my memory isn't as good as it used to be.......which is what prompts me to be more diligent about staying on top of it.

[Legionnaire]

Please, not another caliber war! We are already worn down by the .45 vs 9mm debate!

Roger that. Bad example.

My point is just that in addition to many long-time shooters in the class, there are often complete newbies who could benefit from the experiences and opinions of the instructors related to safe and accurate gun handling ... in addition to the limited legal information that must be addressed accurately.

Caliber wars. Been there ... done that ... got the T-shirt ... wore it out ... used the rag to clean my gun.

[The Annoyed Man]

Jusme, Yeah, I fully concede that what shows up here on these pages may be nothing more than incorrect recitation of what was correctly taught in the class....and maybe the instructors are 100% perfect in what and how they teach the curriculum.

What shows up on these pages is somewhat "self correcting" particularly if one learns the cast of characters.

Indeed.

[bblhd672]

As one of the guilty "My instructor said" parties, I apologize for making the statement. I won't do it again.

After taking my LTC class and frequenting this forum, I have discovered several things my instructor said were not entirely accurate. Perhaps it was due to my misunderstanding what he said, or he did not clearly articulate the actual law, or he failed to provide up to date information by saying something that had been superseded. I asked more questions during the class than anyone else, usually because I wanted something he said clarified so I understood what he said.

No disrespect intended toward any of the LTC instructors - they have a tough job complying with and keeping up with the changing laws.

[txglock21]

There are two things an instructor can do to help untangle the confusion of complex rules and laws. First is to give the student the latest CHL-16, and to inform them that it can easily be found on-line. The second thing they can do is to give them the TexasCHLforum URL. We are given a lot of information to absorb at the CHL class, and the laws and rules change at least every 2 years. This forum is the best resource that CHL/LTC holders to get a handle on the often confusing laws and how they apply.

100%. I have learned more on this forum than I ever would taking 10 CHL classes or trying to look up each nuance of every law. It's the reason I joined and continue to read as much as possible on here. I have suggested this site to all friends who have their CHL/LTC or are thinking about getting it. And just to add, I hardly remember anything my instructor said in my class over 3 and half years ago.

[WildBill]

There will always be instructors who teach the wrong things or teach their opinions as facts.
There will always be students who hear it wrong or misinterpret what was actually stated.

It is up to the LTC to make sure that they know the appropriate laws.
The forum is the best way I know for them to ask questions and find out the real information.

[The Annoyed Man]

As one of the guilty "My instructor said" parties, I apologize for making the statement. I won't do it again.

After taking my LTC class and frequenting this forum, I have discovered several things my instructor said were not entirely accurate. Perhaps it was due to my misunderstanding what he said, or he did not clearly articulate the actual law, or he failed to provide up to date information by saying something that had been superseded. I asked more questions during the class than anyone else, usually because I wanted something he said clarified so I understood what he said.

No disrespect intended toward any of the LTC instructors - they have a tough job complying with and keeping up with the changing laws.

Hey, no apology necessary! Like I said in my OP, the Lord knows my memory of things isn't nearly perfect.

And I agree with others that this website is the most valuable resource on the web aside from the CHL-16 document itself as to not just what the law says, but also how to understand what the law says.....which can be a complicated beast to discern.

[gthaustex]

There are two things an instructor can do to help untangle the confusion of complex rules and laws. First is to give the student the latest CHL-16, and to inform them that it can easily be found on-line. The second thing they can do is to give them the TexasCHLforum URL. We are given a lot of information to absorb at the CHL class, and the laws and rules change at least every 2 years. This forum is the best resource that CHL/LTC holders to get a handle on the often confusing laws and how they apply.

Those are good suggestions. I can't speak to current practices (I don't renew until 10/05/17, and as I recall, a renewal class is no longer required?), but I do always download and keep a PDF copy of CHL-16, and I often refer to the published code online. My problem is an aging brain in someone who most certainly DID inhale back in the dark ages, and my memory isn't as good as it used to be.......which is what prompts me to be more diligent about staying on top of it.

TAM, your recollection is correct. No renewal class is required anymore (classroom or proficiency).

That said, and in keeping with this thread, I wonder how many out there who don't frequent this forum will actually stay up with changes in the law now that they don't have to go to a class to renew their plastic??