Three professors sue UT to keep guns out of their classrooms

[Jusme]

In some subjects, you are being taught the substance, the how to do it. Accounting comes to mind here. Mathematics below a certain level, maybe engineering.

In other subjects, not so much. You are being exposed to thinking and reasoning. A prof who drones on and in only about orthodoxy, conventional wisdom, is cheating you.

Don't be afraid of ideas. Be afraid of people who urge you to fear ideas, be intolerant of new thoughts, etc. Learn to think for yourself. When you do, you analyze situations, figure out for yourself whether a new idea is helpful or not, unchained from the mind control that others ply you with.

In some instances, I'd tend to agree with you. For instance, I had a 'Texas State and Local Government' prof who was impossible to read his true colors. On any given day, while teaching a certain topic, he'd present it from a completely liberal perspective, and then later on (perhaps another day, perhaps not), he'd present it from a completely conservative perspective. He absolutely gave it his all from both viewpoints, and he did his best to convince us in both instances that the particular viewpoint was 'right and just'. This guy really wanted us to think it through, and challenged everyone's preconceived notions (rather than reinforce one side and challenge only the other).

However, when a prof doesn't do this - when he or she always presents one side as 'right' and the other as 'wrong', I am thoroughly disgusted. They shouldn't be there to indoctrinate young kids and narrow their thinking - rather they should be broadening the thoughts of the students.

I had a high school teacher like that, he was probably the only teacher I had that actually tried to prepare students for college, he taught in a lecture style format, encouraged debate, and could play devil's advocate, no matter which position, you took on the topic. He and I are still friends today, even though, he is a bleeding heart liberal.

[bigity]

The amount of ignorance about the campus carry law is simply staggering.


And regarding teachers - I agree. They aren't there to teach you what to think, they should be teaching you HOW to think.

[JALLEN]

There seems to be a kind of Gresham's Law effect here.

In economics, Gresham's law is a monetary principle stating that "bad money drives out good". For example, if there are two forms of commodity money in circulation, which are accepted by law as having similar face value, the more valuable commodity will disappear from circulation.

. Wikipedia

It is very noticeable when it happens. Example. I worked at a very large title insurance company while in law school. One department was supervised by a woman of a certain nationality/ethnicity. Over a period of time, all the employees in that department came to be that nationality. She was very good, that department was exceedingly efficient, no issues, but every single employee was the same ethnic origin as she was. They spoke their dialect, they were all the same religion. When a vacancy occurred,it was filled with someone of that ethnic group. If others were hired, they did not last long. It could not have been coincidence.

I observed the same phenomena among lab techs at a large medical provider in San Diego. All the lab techs were the same nationality/ethnicity. Those from other ethnicities, if not driven out, eventually found employment elsewhere, I guess.

In college teaching, the communists have taken over and have been driving out all others.

[TexasTornado]

I can't wait for this case to get thrown out. A bunch of over-educated idiots. I'm almost ashamed to even be going to a sister school.

[TexasTornado]

Case update:

The Judge today granted an unopposed request from the Plaintiffs for an extension of time to respond to the Motion(s) to Dismiss. The response from the Plaintiffs on the Motion(s) to Dismiss is now due on August 29th.

Also, each party today filed a final brief before the Judge makes his decision on whether to grant or deny the Motion for Preliminary Injunction. I am still guessing that the decision will issue on Friday.

The whiny undertone to the plaintiffs statements are just annoying. Couldn't even get through the second page.

[dlh]

I would be surprised if the judge granted the temporary injunction. However, I have been surprised before. Injunctions usually involve specific, concrete, and likely threats such as a company using a bulldozer about to destroy your house. We have none of that here. The plaintiffs simply constructed a possible, hypothetical scenario and asked for relief against that.

Regardless, I assume the judge has his own clerks researching and giving him various memorandum on the law in this area so he will have quite a bit of material to work with in reaching his decision.

[TexasTornado]

So I've been reading some articles...

This one from http://www.mystatesman.com/news/news/lo ... dgun/nsC89 says:

“There is no Texas statute that instructs Plaintiffs that they are acting illegally if they instruct their students that they may not bring guns into their classrooms,” their lawyers wrote. Nor do the policies adopted by UT President Gregory L. Fenves prohibit faculty members from exercising a gun-banning option, they added.

Is it just me or is there also no Texas statute that instructs students that they are acting illegally if they ignore professors instructions that they may not bring guns into their classrooms???

Heck, it's not even illegal to bring your weapon into areas of campus restricted by policy that are not otherwise restricted by law (ex. Sporting event). It is only enforceable by school policy.

[ELB]

There seems to be a kind of Gresham's Law effect here.

In economics, Gresham's law is a monetary principle stating that "bad money drives out good". For example, if there are two forms of commodity money in circulation, which are accepted by law as having similar face value, the more valuable commodity will disappear from circulation.

. Wikipedia

It is very noticeable when it happens. Example. I worked at a very large title insurance company while in law school. One department was supervised by a woman of a certain nationality/ethnicity. Over a period of time, all the employees in that department came to be that nationality. She was very good, that department was exceedingly efficient, no issues, but every single employee was the same ethnic origin as she was. They spoke their dialect, they were all the same religion. When a vacancy occurred,it was filled with someone of that ethnic group. If others were hired, they did not last long. It could not have been coincidence.

I observed the same phenomena among lab techs at a large medical provider in San Diego. All the lab techs were the same nationality/ethnicity. Those from other ethnicities, if not driven out, eventually found employment elsewhere, I guess.

In college teaching, the communists have taken over and have been driving out all others.

Interesting. When I was in Saudi Arabia, it seemed all the telephone installer/repair guys were Filipinos. Likewise nurses seemed to be either Westerners or Filipinas. There were many other examples of specific nationalities or cultures/ethnicities seeming to congregate in certain job categories.

[Papa_Tiger]

So I've been reading some articles...

This one from http://www.mystatesman.com/news/news/lo ... dgun/nsC89 says:

“There is no Texas statute that instructs Plaintiffs that they are acting illegally if they instruct their students that they may not bring guns into their classrooms,” their lawyers wrote. Nor do the policies adopted by UT President Gregory L. Fenves prohibit faculty members from exercising a gun-banning option, they added.

Is it just me or is there also no Texas statute that instructs students that they are acting illegally if they ignore professors instructions that they may not bring guns into their classrooms???

Heck, it's not even illegal to bring your weapon into areas of campus restricted by policy that are not otherwise restricted by law (ex. Sporting event). It is only enforceable by school policy.

The article you mention above was VERY biased and incredibly sympathetic to the plaintiffs. Any location off limits by campus policy MUST be posted with a 30.06 sign to be enforceable. Violation of a 30.06 sign on campus is a class A misdemeanor.

[ELB]

...
Is it just me or is there also no Texas statute that instructs students that they are acting illegally if they ignore professors instructions that they may not bring guns into their classrooms???

heh. Interesting point.

Heck, it's not even illegal to bring your weapon into areas of campus restricted by policy. .

I thought the rules promulgated by the President (as modified by the Regents) had the force of law once adopted?

[Papa_Tiger]

I thought the rules promulgated by the President (as modified by the Regents) had the force of law once adopted?

Only if provided notice via 30.06:

(a-2) Notwithstanding Subsection (a) or Section 46.03(a), a license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on the campus of a private or independent institution of higher education in this state that has established rules, regulations, or other provisions prohibiting license holders from carrying handguns pursuant to Section 411.2031(e), Government Code, or on the grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by such an institution is being conducted, or in a passenger transportation vehicle of such an institution, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, provided the institution gives effective notice under Section 30.06.

The easiest method to ensure that there is no question of the location being off limits is the posting of a 30.06 sign at each off limits location.

[TexasTornado]

So I've been reading some articles...

This one from http://www.mystatesman.com/news/news/lo ... dgun/nsC89 says:

“There is no Texas statute that instructs Plaintiffs that they are acting illegally if they instruct their students that they may not bring guns into their classrooms,” their lawyers wrote. Nor do the policies adopted by UT President Gregory L. Fenves prohibit faculty members from exercising a gun-banning option, they added.

Is it just me or is there also no Texas statute that instructs students that they are acting illegally if they ignore professors instructions that they may not bring guns into their classrooms???

Heck, it's not even illegal to bring your weapon into areas of campus restricted by policy that are not otherwise restricted by law (ex. Sporting event). It is only enforceable by school policy.

The article you mention above was VERY biased and incredibly sympathetic to the plaintiffs. Any location off limits by campus policy MUST be posted with a 30.06 sign to be enforceable. Violation of a 30.06 sign on campus is a class A misdemeanor.

I know they're using the 30.06 signs for permanent locations such as the labs, but for temporary ones when children visit campus I doubt that will be the case.

Also they told professors oral notification was satisfactory for their offices which I don't see how that could be enforceable since the AG clearly stated in the supplemental memorandum that:

"If the University was violating state law by “generally prohibiting” concealed carry on the university campus or impermissibly delegating decision-making regarding concealed carry to individual professors, the Attorney General could ultimately bring an enforcement action to bring the University into compliance, which would include enacting policies that do not allow individual professors to prohibit licensed adults from carrying concealed handguns in classrooms."

I'm not seeing how offices are any different than classrooms given this statement...not that I will meet with a professor in a "safe space" we can talk in the hallway for all I care.

[ELB]

I thought the rules promulgated by the President (as modified by the Regents) had the force of law once adopted?

Only if provided notice via 30.06:

(a-2) Notwithstanding Subsection (a) or Section 46.03(a), a license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on the campus of a private or independent institution of higher education in this state that has established rules, regulations, or other provisions prohibiting license holders from carrying handguns pursuant to Section 411.2031(e), Government Code, or on the grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by such an institution is being conducted, or in a passenger transportation vehicle of such an institution, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, provided the institution gives effective notice under Section 30.06.

The easiest method to ensure that there is no question of the location being off limits is the posting of a 30.06 sign at each off limits location.

Ah. Saying the notice must be given is a lot different than "it's not even illegal to bring your weapon into areas of campus restricted by policy." I'll will bet that every student and employee will sooner or later be required to sign a statement containing language that meets the statute. They'll post signs as well, but the lack of one will not legally assist anyone who has signed a statement, just non-students/employees.

[TexasTornado]

I thought the rules promulgated by the President (as modified by the Regents) had the force of law once adopted?

Only if provided notice via 30.06:

(a-2) Notwithstanding Subsection (a) or Section 46.03(a), a license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on the campus of a private or independent institution of higher education in this state that has established rules, regulations, or other provisions prohibiting license holders from carrying handguns pursuant to Section 411.2031(e), Government Code, or on the grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by such an institution is being conducted, or in a passenger transportation vehicle of such an institution, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, provided the institution gives effective notice under Section 30.06.

The easiest method to ensure that there is no question of the location being off limits is the posting of a 30.06 sign at each off limits location.

Ah. Saying the notice must be given is a lot different than "it's not even illegal to bring your weapon into areas of campus restricted by policy." I'll will bet that every student and employee will sooner or later be required to sign a statement containing language that meets the statute. They'll post signs as well, but the lack of one will not legally assist anyone who has signed a statement, just non-students/employees.

Restricted by policy is different than restricted by signage.

I'm curious about private institutions. Won't they have to post a 30.06 on every building?

[RogueUSMC]

Interesting. When I was in Saudi Arabia, it seemed all the telephone installer/repair guys were Filipinos. Likewise nurses seemed to be either Westerners or Filipinas. There were many other examples of specific nationalities or cultures/ethnicities seeming to congregate in certain job categories.

And the water truck drivers...lol. That's where we got our alcohol...