HD gun

[T3hK1w1]

I was browsing the High Road, and one of the more lively discussions on there gave me some food for thought about rifles for HD. After reading all the arguments, etc, I did some serious thinking about my choice of HD weapons (considering just my current guns). Like most people I suspect, I keep a shotgun as my primary HD gun. However, I decided to inventory my current guns for HD potential. Excluding my .22s and a couple of "projects/collectors", the count is-
1 Stevens pump 12-gauge
1 Makarov 9x18mm
1 Marlin levergun in .444 Marlin
1 Savage 110 in .270 Win
(I live in a 4-bedroom house with 3 other people and a dog, in a suburban neighborhood in a good part of town)

Advantages and disadvantages of each

Stevens 12-gauge
Pros-
-that "Pump" sound(psychological effect)
-multiple projectiles(#4 buckshot)
-fast action
Cons-
-28" bbl is LONG
- 2+1 mag cap(This gun's primary function is as a goose blaster)
-Have had feeding issues with it in the past
-collateral damage

Makarov
Pros
-easy to handle, no long barrel to get in the way
-8+1 round cap, plus fast reloads w/extra mag
-unlikely to go through whomever I shot
Cons
-not a very powerful round
-My mother would literally kick me out of the house if she discovered I owned a handgun(Moving out in a month so this will not matter for long)

Marlin 444S
Pros
-very powerful round, will stop anything I shoot 98% of time
-4+1 mag cap
-fast action(Lever), is very unlikely to jam
-psychological effect of staring down a scoped rifle with a .429 bore
-accurate
Cons
-Very powerful round, almost certain to penetrate FAR past my target(265 gr at 2300 FPS muzzle)
-long 22" barrel
-slow to reload

Savage 110
Pros
-powerful round, accurate
Cons
-Long barrel
-relativelly slow bolt action
-3-9X scope
-likely to penetrate well beyond my target

Rankings
This is the order I would grab my guns in, given the choice between all of them, excluding foes w/body armor, other unexpected situations

#1 12-gauge
#2 Makarov
#3 Marlin
#4 Savage

Anyone have comments/suggestions about this?
Adding a poll about your choice of HD weapons

[Xander]

A Mossberg 500 12-gauge full of aught buck, with slugs in the side-saddle shell holder for just-in-case.

EDIT: I really probably should have chosen the More than one/All of the above option. I *do* always have handguns ready to go...My carry gun is always close and I have a Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum in the GunVault at all times, and for a rifle I have a Bushmaster M-4 with mags of Winchester Silvertips, Hornady TAP, soft-points and FMJ standing by if the need arises.

[badkarma56]

The shotgun is definitely a peacemaker, but I prefer using a handgun for home defense. The two primary reasons are increased precision and lower risk of over- penetration through sheetrock.

I've got a 16 year-old Beretta 92FS loaded with 15+1 rounds of 147 gr. Ranger-T's that serves as my personal "Department of Homeland Security"!

I use the hotter 127 gr +P+ Ranger-T load for carry purposes; the slower, standard-pressure 147 gr. load is more appropriate for domestic "close encounters."

[carlson1]

I have a Remington 870 with a tactical light and Cop Stock mounted. Sets next to the bed. AR-10 not to far out of reach with several handguns. We have an alarm with two house dogs. I hope I know they are coming in - instead of THEY ARE IN!

[razoraggie]

Well, since my wife and myself have no children in the home....it going to be a "no holds barred" for the first unwelcome guest we ever have. Besides our nightstand pieces (.357 me and .38 her) I also keep a Mossberg 590 beside the bed I take out at night and put away in the morning. In the home (IMHO) a shotty is your best bet when limited people inside the home permit.

[JasonH]

Mossberg HS410 here.

[carlson1]

Well, since my wife and myself have no children in the home....

We are the same way except for when the grand baby stays the night. It sure makes your choices easier.

In the home (IMHO) a shotty is your best bet when limited people inside the home permit.

100%[/quote]

[Xander]

The shotgun is definitely a peacemaker, but I prefer using a handgun for home defense. The two primary reasons are increased precision and lower risk of over- penetration through sheetrock.

I've got a 16 year-old Beretta 92FS loaded with 15+1 rounds of 147 gr. Ranger-T's that serves as my personal "Department of Homeland Security"!

I use the hotter 127 gr +P+ Ranger-T load for carry purposes; the slower, standard-pressure 147 gr. load is more appropriate for domestic "close encounters."

Just a thought...You might want to re-think the Ranger-T for inside the home. It's got a nasty habit of over-penetrating after coming in contact with sheet-rock. The Ranger Bonded is better, and in some cases, *much* better. I just went and double-checked this particular load, and it actually looks fairly ok....It doesn't penetrate too much more after moving through sheet rock, but sheet rock still makes it penetrate deeper than no barrier at all, or any other intermediate barrier.

Winchester has a really cool tool for comparing the performance of their different loads, if you want to check it out. http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcemen ... flash.html

[carlson1]

I use the hotter 127 gr +P+ Ranger-T load for carry purposes; the slower, standard-pressure 147 gr. load is more appropriate for domestic "close encounters."

Don't want to take this off topic, but I also love this round. I just read on the Smith and Wesson sight that this +P+ round voids the warranty in any Smith and Wesson firearm. It shocked me.

[badkarma56]

The shotgun is definitely a peacemaker, but I prefer using a handgun for home defense. The two primary reasons are increased precision and lower risk of over- penetration through sheetrock.

I've got a 16 year-old Beretta 92FS loaded with 15+1 rounds of 147 gr. Ranger-T's that serves as my personal "Department of Homeland Security"!

I use the hotter 127 gr +P+ Ranger-T load for carry purposes; the slower, standard-pressure 147 gr. load is more appropriate for domestic "close encounters."

Just a thought...You might want to re-think the Ranger-T for inside the home. It's got a nasty habit of over-penetrating after coming in contact with sheet-rock. The Ranger Bonded is better, and in some cases, *much* better. I just went and double-checked this particular load, and it actually looks fairly ok....It doesn't penetrate too much more after moving through sheet rock, but sheet rock still makes it penetrate deeper than no barrier at all, or any other intermediate barrier.

Winchester has a really cool tool for comparing the performance of their different loads, if you want to check it out. http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcemen ... flash.html

Xander,

I've seen that tool before and it is cool! Your apprehension is correct, and speaks to the inherently risky proposition of engaging a target inside of a thin-walled residential structure. The 147 gr. Ranger-T does tear through wallboard, however, it's fairly low velocity (990 fps) and heavier weight decrease the risks of unforeseeable ricochet and unintended distance (although all bullets tend to fly for a pretty long distance unless acted upon). So for me, it's a trade-off of one risk for another. The equivalent 147 gr. Ranger Bonded round actually exhibits greater penetration than the 147 gr. Ranger-T.

The lighter Ranger-T loads (i.e., Ranger-T 124 gr. +P, 127 +P+, and Bonded 124 gr. +P) offer less penetration but much more velocity (thus the ricochet potential is greater, and these faster rounds will likely travel farther beyond the target/outside the walls of the home). Not to mention that the lighter loads are all +P/+P+ which means they are louder and produce more recoil, thus further threatening your hearing (believe me, I don't look forward to firing an unsuppressed weapon inside of a house...talk about a ringing sensation) and potentially compromising your accuracy during a high-stress home defense scenario.

Ultimately, I'm most comfortable using a heavy/slow 9mm round for home defense. For the reasons that I've indicated, the risks seem to balance out better. However, make no mistake, having to employ any firearm inside the home is always going to present certain hazards. The best you can do is minimize them to the extent possible without sacrificing the effectiveness of your weapon. It'll also help to hit what you're aimin' at!

[badkarma56]

I use the hotter 127 gr +P+ Ranger-T load for carry purposes; the slower, standard-pressure 147 gr. load is more appropriate for domestic "close encounters."

Don't want to take this off topic, but I also love this round. I just read on the Smith and Wesson sight that this +P+ round voids the warranty in any Smith and Wesson firearm. It shocked me.

Interesting, Carlson1. S&W must not build their weapons to handle "hot" ammo. In all fairness though, even in weapons specifically constructed to handle +P/+P+ loads (like the H&K USP, Sig 226, and Beretta M9/92FS), continued use of "hot" ammo will significantly accelerate wear on the weapon's action, slide, and internal components.

Still, I am surprised that a major manufacturer like S&W would make such a blanket statement. Perhaps this partly explains why none of their weapons seem to be standard issue these days...

[carlson1]

Still, I am surprised that a major manufacturer like S&W would make such a blanket statement. Perhaps this partly explains why none of their weapons seem to be standard issue these days...

I was shocked also. I was reading their manual online looking for some information about a trigger on a M&P and found on page 12 of their
manual. . . I like the Winchester 127 +P+, but I really like the 147 grain Winchester Ranger.

“Plus-P� (+P) ammunition generates pressures in excess of the
pressures associated with standard ammunition. Such pressures
may affect the wear characteristics or exceed the margin of safety
built into some revolvers and could therefore be DANGEROUS.
This ammunition should not be used in Smith & Wesson
medium (K frame) revolvers manufactured prior to 1958. Such
pre-1958 medium (K-frame) revolvers can be identified by the
absence of a model number stamped inside the yoke cut of the
frame. (i.e., the area of the frame exposed when the cylinder is
in the open position.
“Plus-P-Plus (+P+) ammunition must not be used in Smith &
Wesson firearms.

[badkarma56]

Still, I am surprised that a major manufacturer like S&W would make such a blanket statement. Perhaps this partly explains why none of their weapons seem to be standard issue these days...

I was shocked also. I was reading their manual online looking for some information about a trigger on a M&P and found on page 12 of their
manual. . . I like the Winchester 127 +P+, but I really like the 147 grain Winchester Ranger.

“Plus-P� (+P) ammunition generates pressures in excess of the
pressures associated with standard ammunition. Such pressures
may affect the wear characteristics or exceed the margin of safety
built into some revolvers and could therefore be DANGEROUS.
This ammunition should not be used in Smith & Wesson
medium (K frame) revolvers manufactured prior to 1958. Such
pre-1958 medium (K-frame) revolvers can be identified by the
absence of a model number stamped inside the yoke cut of the
frame. (i.e., the area of the frame exposed when the cylinder is
in the open position.
“Plus-P-Plus (+P+) ammunition must not be used in Smith &
Wesson firearms.

O.K., I can understand the prohibition against +P usage in old S&W revolvers, but I find the broad prohibition against +P+ in any S&W weapons a bit troubling. Modern firearms from reputable manufacturers should nearly all be engineered well enough to handle some use of +P+ ammo, particularly in the "military calibers" (i.e., 9mm/.45 ACP).

Depending on the manufacturer, NATO-spec 9mm "ball" ammo is always loaded to +P or +P+ pressures. Generally speaking, even commercial-grade European 9mm FMJ is loaded to +P pressures (not like the sedate American FMJ loads like Winchester "white box" Q4172)...I'm saddened that an American manufacturer like S&W wouldn't build their handguns with these realities in mind.

[Thane]

I'm saddened that an American manufacturer like S&W wouldn't build their handguns with these realities in mind.

Actually, they do - they just don't advertise it, for a couple of reasons.

S&W, having been sued in the past, is understandably leery about anything lawyer-related. Because of this, they don't want to get sued by some police department for weapons failure, when the dept. only ran +P+ through their weapons, and experienced failures after only a (comparatively) few rounds. Multiple departments suing for replacement guns at once can cause some financial difficulties.

Second, there really is no upper limit to what defines +P+ pressures (at least, not according to everything I've read, both in loading manuals and online). +P has a definite upper limit by SAAMI standards; but a gross overload can still be "within +P+ standards." A .38 Special loaded to .357 Magnum pressures would be a +P+ round. Fire more than one in your old Model 36, and you'll quite possibly take the gun apart. Again, S&W doesn't want to get sued, this time by over-zealous handloaders claiming, "But the gun was rated for it, so now you have to replace it/pay my medical bills/pay me extra restitution!!!"

Even normal use of +P+ (at sane pressure levels) without properly heavy springs and recoil buffers can break guns after time and extensive use.

Frankly, if I needed that much more power, I'd switch to a bigger round (*ahem*1911*cough*.45ACP*ahemcough*).

[badkarma56]

I'm saddened that an American manufacturer like S&W wouldn't build their handguns with these realities in mind.

Actually, they do - they just don't advertise it, for a couple of reasons.

S&W, having been sued in the past, is understandably leery about anything lawyer-related. Because of this, they don't want to get sued by some police department for weapons failure, when the dept. only ran +P+ through their weapons, and experienced failures after only a (comparatively) few rounds. Multiple departments suing for replacement guns at once can cause some financial difficulties.

Second, there really is no upper limit to what defines +P+ pressures (at least, not according to everything I've read, both in loading manuals and online). +P has a definite upper limit by SAAMI standards; but a gross overload can still be "within +P+ standards." A .38 Special loaded to .357 Magnum pressures would be a +P+ round. Fire more than one in your old Model 36, and you'll quite possibly take the gun apart. Again, S&W doesn't want to get sued, this time by over-zealous handloaders claiming, "But the gun was rated for it, so now you have to replace it/pay my medical bills/pay me extra restitution!!!"

Even normal use of +P+ (at sane pressure levels) without properly heavy springs and recoil buffers can break guns after time and extensive use.

Frankly, if I needed that much more power, I'd switch to a bigger round (*ahem*1911*cough*.45ACP*ahemcough*).

LOL, too true...I recently purchased a USP45 but I don't use it for home defense yet, perhaps I'll eventually switch to it once I've got a thousand or so rounds through it. For now, it's too new (only 300 rounds downrange), whereas my old 92FS is tried and true!

Your point about products liability for S&W makes sense, particularly with radical handloads floating around at most funshows. Until I finally decide to "roll my own," I'll never trust handloads enough to use in any of my guns.