Question on NFA Trust signature

[der Teufel]

SO, I have decided that a suppressor would be a handy accessory for hog hunting. Save my ears, avoid annoying the neighbors, etc.

I went through Silencer Shop, and everything is fine, but I have a question.

I put my nephew on as a trustee, and gave him his signature sheet to sign and have notarized. On the sheet it lists his name as FIRST MIDDLE LAST.

When he signed it, he simply signed his first and last name, omitting the middle name.

Is that a problem? Should I have him re-do the signature page using his full name as it is typed on the trust?

Thanks in Advance,
--

[ScottDLS]

SO, I have decided that a suppressor would be a handy accessory for hog hunting. Save my ears, avoid annoying the neighbors, etc.

I went through Silencer Shop, and everything is fine, but I have a question.

I put my nephew on as a trustee, and gave him his signature sheet to sign and have notarized. On the sheet it lists his name as FIRST MIDDLE LAST.

When he signed it, he simply signed his first and last name, omitting the middle name.

Is that a problem? Should I have him re-do the signature page using his full name as it is typed on the trust?

Thanks in Advance,
--

I doubt it would make any difference. Many people's signatures are indecipherable anyway and essentially your signature is whatever you say it is... Who's to say his way of signing his middle name is not an unidentifiable dot on the end of his first name...?

EDIT to ADD: Actually a notary should make him sign it in their presence, so if they haven't notarized it, they'll probably have him sign over it again and at that time he can do it however he wants.

[der Teufel]

It is notarized, I'm just a bit concerned about the legality of the signature. I know on some legal documents the signed name must exactly match the typed or printed name. I don't know if that's the case on this type of trust, however. I do want to get it right, though.

[OldCurlyWolf]

It is notarized, I'm just a bit concerned about the legality of the signature. I know on some legal documents the signed name must exactly match the typed or printed name. I don't know if that's the case on this type of trust, however. I do want to get it right, though.

I have signed many legal documents over the years. Some for all levels of government and quite a few for financial dealings. I never use my first name nor even use my first initial as some do. The few times someone has "complained" about this and insisted that I use my first name, they didn't get very far. Especially as I have gotten older. I have yet to have my signature rejected because of this.

[winters]

I never sign my middle name and you would be hard pressed to read my signed last name anyway.

[AJSully421]

Before 9/11 I had credit cards, bank accounts, and checks with "AJ Sullivan", not my legal name. I got a call shortly after the patriot act took effect to have everything changed to my full legal name.

[TreyHouston]

you cant even read my signature! As long as the notary is identifying Who you are and that you're signing that's all that matters

[RoyGBiv]

I had to sign my middle name a while back.... Looked like a completely different person signed the middle name. Had to think about how to spell it, I use it so infrequently..

[Solaris]

You can sign it with Prince's symbol if you like. There is no authority that determines what your signature has to look like.

[ScottDLS]

You can sign it with Prince's symbol if you like. There is no authority that determines what your signature has to look like.

I always sign my middle name as an unpronounceable glyph (as the Artist's symbol was referred to back in the day).


Story - In the early 1980's the State of North Carolina insisted that you sign your full middle name on your driver's license form before they used it to produce the picture license. My father (a practicing attorney) took his application in with the middle name signed with a letter and a dot. The clerk wanted him to get in another line to redo it with the full middle name. He refused, declaring that was how he signed his full middle name. After a brief "standoff" the clerk compromised by letting him add a tiny squiggle to the dot. Had he insisted on calling a supervisor, I don't doubt he would have prevailed...but then shot by the people in line behind him.

[dhoobler]

Relating to NFA trusts, when one moves, must you have a lawyer amend the trust with the new address, or can you just report your new address to the BATFE?

[ScottDLS]

Relating to NFA trusts, when one moves, must you have a lawyer amend the trust with the new address, or can you just report your new address to the BATFE?

BATFE doesn't care unless you move to another state, however you may want to speak to your trust attorney about other reasons to update the trust. Mostly I suppose the Trustee should be notified, unless it's a self settled and revocable trust in which case you'd likely notify yourself.

I really think a LLC is easier in the long run as an entity for holding NFA firearms. It's a little more expensive to create one and there are very minimal annual filing requirements, but is considerably more flexible than a trust.

[TangoX-ray]

Relating to NFA trusts, when one moves, must you have a lawyer amend the trust with the new address, or can you just report your new address to the BATFE?

BATFE doesn't care unless you move to another state, however you may want to speak to your trust attorney about other reasons to update the trust. Mostly I suppose the Trustee should be notified, unless it's a self settled and revocable trust in which case you'd likely notify yourself.

I really think a LLC is easier in the long run as an entity for holding NFA firearms. It's a little more expensive to create one and there are very minimal annual filing requirements, but is considerably more flexible than a trust.

Scott, could you elaborate a little more on the LLC? I'm leaning this way over a trust.

[ScottDLS]

Relating to NFA trusts, when one moves, must you have a lawyer amend the trust with the new address, or can you just report your new address to the BATFE?

BATFE doesn't care unless you move to another state, however you may want to speak to your trust attorney about other reasons to update the trust. Mostly I suppose the Trustee should be notified, unless it's a self settled and revocable trust in which case you'd likely notify yourself.

I really think a LLC is easier in the long run as an entity for holding NFA firearms. It's a little more expensive to create one and there are very minimal annual filing requirements, but is considerably more flexible than a trust.

Scott, could you elaborate a little more on the LLC? I'm leaning this way over a trust.

OK quickly I'll give the disclaimer that I generally hate...which is that this is not legal advice and is for information and to share what I have done only...

When I started getting serious about NFA stuff in the early 2000's, I did some research and talked to a dealer and found out the Denton County (Texas) Sheriff would sign the Form 4 for a machinegun or other NFA stuff after running a background check or if you had a CHL.

But before that (since the '80's) I had been interested, but didn't live anywhere where the CLEO would sign. Since this was before the Internet the information available was from magazines, the guy down the street, and the "highly knowledgeable" non-class 3 FFL's. After researching as much as I could, I found that some people had gotten around the CLEO signature by forming a corporation and buying the NFA item from corporate funds as an asset of the corp. Since the corporation was a legal person, but not a natural person you didn't have to have the CLEO sign that the "person" was OK to own. At this time Limited Liability Partnerships and Companies were just starting to be established in some states, and as far as I can tell nobody thought of using a Trust, so most people went the "corporate" route.

Corporations require certain formalities to keep them in existence as legal persons...Annual meetings of director(s), minutes, resolutions, appointment of officers, shareholder meetings. They vary from state to state though the trend has been toward less paperwork. In Texas you can have a corporation where you are the sole shareholder, director, and officer...just make sure you file your no-tax due franchise tax reports yearly, and document your meetings (with yourself ).

Single member LLC's are also allowed in Texas and require even less paperwork to keep active. Both entities in Texas require a $400 filing fee to create, which is more expensive than some insta-Trusts I've seen advertised at the gun shows. You don't need a lawyer to file the incorporation with the State, but many Texas attorneys have online access to the Secretary of State and can create one online in less than a minute. So can the Internet outfits like Company Store, Corporation.com, etc.

I have a Texas corporation that I formed 5 years ago to do consulting work through, and I keep it active. Last year I formed a single member LLC to hold some real estate investments that I haven't gotten around to making. The corp is more of a pain to document, but takes maybe 2 hours a year. The LLC is easier.

Once you have an LLC, you can add "members" (owners) in whatever proportion you wish and give them management duties, like making sure to shoot all the company NFA stuff once a month. You can change LLC operating agreement to specify ownership/control changes upon certain occurrences (death, become prohibited, reach age of majority, etc.) and really you can pretty much do whatever you want with the company within Texas law.

My sheriff signed last time I bought a NFA item so form 4's are in my name personally with my pictures and prints. The current Sheriff won't sign, so I used my LLC to apply for a "Form 1" to manufacture (build) a short barreled rifle. I screwed up the paperwork twice, so kicked back by ATF. The current Sheriff just lost the Republican primary in Denton County to one that will sign. Since the Democrat has no chance of winning in our county, I may wait....BUT all of the above is likely to be moot.

ATF has announced changes to the rules for Corps, LLC, Trusts, and Natural Persons, so that each "responsible person" in an entity (i.e. can possess the item) must henceforth undergo a background check (prints, photo). HOWEVER, the CLEO SIGN OFF has been changed to CLEO notification similar to what it is for FFL licensees. SO as of some time in July, you can either register in your own name regardless of whether sheriff will sign, or you will still have to do prints/photos for every responsible member of the legal entity.

Good luck.

-Scott