I now regret that OC passed

[LSUTiger]

I regret it passed because just like was proposed by myself and many we now have less places we can CC because they have all been educated about proper signage.


I would have rather seen off limit areas disappear.

So why the push for it? If groups like OCT did nothing but damage to the OC cause then why not let them be responsible for killing off OC? Why didn't the NRA and others push for better things rather than going for OC?

I'm not harping on you so please don't take it that way. I just see your sentiment on this forum, and I am starting to share it as well, so if we knew this was possible why did we push for OC?

Charles can answer this better than anyone, but I'll take a stab at it.

Two sessions ago OCT got an absolutely horrible OC bill introduced. The NRA and TSRA would not support it, because it eliminated 30.06 (among other things) and made things worse for everyone. So it died in committee. OCT then loudly proclaimed that NRA and TSRA had sabotaged the bill and were clearly anti-OC. That was false. NRA and TSRA have always been pro-OC, but there were other priorities that were of a higher precedence. (Eliminating or reducing the places that are off limits was very high on the list. So was campus carry.) The idea was to get improvements in CC first, then get OC through, because it would be a lot harder to roll back the other changes afterwards.

But OCT continued to stir the pot, prompting some national chains to publicly state that they would prefer their customers not carry in their stores. (All of us knew that meant nothing with regard to CC, and I'm pretty sure the chains knew that as well. It was a sop to the anti-gun crowd that OCT was getting stirred up and riled up.) Because of OCT we now have Moms Demand Action in Texas, and they routinely point to OCT as "proof" that people with guns are crazy and can't be trusted.

Last session OCT was planning to introduce another OC bill. (I'm pretty sure they did, but Charles can confirm that.) But the NRA and TSRA introduced one as well, because their hand had been forced by OCT. Either we got a good bill through or a bad bill through. That was the choice. Then OCT tried to poison the bill with the Dutton Amendment, which would have killed it. Why? Because for them it was all or nothing. It was only the furious behind the scenes work of the NRA and TSRA that salvaged that, and even then it was passed at the last possible moment in the session.

So now we have OC. Its impact is not yet known, but I believe it's going to be MUCH harder to get off limits places removed now. What's the legislature going to do? Say you can only CC at amusement parks? Sporting events? Racetracks? Bars? Can you imagine the outcry if they allow OC at those places?

It may still be doable. Charles has worked miracles before. But it's going to be much harder. And it may take much longer.

That is why you approach these issues like an adult, with a realistic understanding of the atmosphere within which you are working. Yes, this is Texas. But we have some of the largest cities in the country. And large cities are almost exclusively liberal and opposed to guns. Once OCT came busting through the door rearranging the furniture without even bothering to ask and loudly demanding their "rights" while threatening anyone who opposed them, the atmosphere for positive changes on our gun laws went decidedly negative. It's only because Charles, the NRA and the TSRA have worked diligently in the legislature for over 20 years building relationships, that we were able to accomplish what we did last session, despite the negative influence of OCT.

For those who point to other states that have OC and don't have problems, you can't compare other states to Texas. For one thing, some of those states have always had OC. It's never been illegal to openly carry a handgun in public. So all the recent CC improvements in those states are completely unrelated to OC. In Texas the two are tied together in the public's mind. They're all a part of the "gun nut" faction demanding their rights. Others have recently gotten OC or so-called "constitutional carry", but they don't have big cities like Texas does. Oklahoma's biggest city is OKC, which is barely bigger than Arlington, TX. Phoenix is bigger, but the state is mostly rural and has a long history of gun culture. Alaska? Do I really need to explain that?

Look at gun laws across the country. The more populous the state the stricter the laws. California? A nightmare for gun owners. New York? Same thing. Texas is a glaring exception to that. But we have to be realistic and realize who and what we're working with and what difficulties we have to overcome to get laws passed. In California or New York, OCT would be in jail. There would be no controversy. Frankly I now think "constitutional carry" is dead in Texas. There is no way it will get the votes in the legislature after what OCT has done. Maybe in another ten or twenty years, if OCT dies off. But not until then.

There's an old saying that you don't poop where you sleep. Well, that's exactly where OCT poops, and the stink is rising. (Mods, if that's too much, just remove it.)

I better understand the "all or nothing" sentiment be discussed about OC. It's not with OC supporters per say, but with OCT specifically. I didn't fully understand/know the full back story.

I just feel that any OC support on the forum automatically gest lumped into the OCT/"in your face" crowd which couldn't be further from the truth.

[baldeagle]

I better understand the "all or nothing" sentiment be discussed about OC. It's not with OC supporters per say, but with OCT specifically. I didn't fully understand/know the full back story.

I just feel that any OC support on the forum automatically gets lumped into the OCT/"in your face" crowd which couldn't be further from the truth.

I'm glad you understand it better, and I can certainly understand why a pro-OC person feels like they're getting lumped in with OCT on this forum. There's a lot of anger among some of us for what OCT has done to set back our rights over the past four years. And every time they post another video or do another interview, it exacerbates that anger. Many members of this forum, including me, have approached them privately and begged them to tone it down. It has fallen on deaf ears.

When they first started, after CJ was arrested, a lot of forum members were calling him a moron and other things, and I stood up for him. (It's personal, but I owe CJ for something he did that changed my life about 10 years ago.) I continued to defend him until it was no longer possible for me to do so. (Ask TAM and others if what I'm saying is true, if you don't believe me.) Here's an example: http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=799987#p799987

But, as they kept racheting up the confrontations and stirring up the pot, and especially after Moms Demand Action began publicizing OCT's actions to further their cause, many of us became very bitter about what they are doing. It's clear they're not helping. It's brain-dead obvious they're not helping. Yet they refuse to see it, admit it or deal with it.

Some of their members have joined this forum and mocked us, calling us anti-2A (imagine calling the guys that have fought for our rights for TWO DECADES anti-2A, and you get some sense of how completely out of proportion they are.) Their accounts get deleted pretty quickly because they are bald-faced liars and refuse to go by forum rules, just like they refuse to go by society's rules.

So, yes, there's a lot of built-up resentment. And now, we're dealing with a backlash that some of us worry could turn into something much worse. As TAM pointed out, this battle cost a LOT of political capital. It might take us several more sessions to get the ground seeded for the holy grail - carry wherever a LEO can carry. And we might never get it if those idiots don't shut up and stop riling up the public.

[Ruark]

Well said, BaldEagle. Thanks. Sometimes I feel like we're circling the wagons, with MDA types on one side and OCT on the other. For sure, talking to either is an exercise in futility. What's especially notable about OCT is their almost cult-like worship of T. Holcomb, for his "tireless work" in getting HB 910 passed, with the support of the valiant Rep. Stickland, who "fought courageously for our 2nd Amendment rights." MDA, CPHV, printing companies, et. al. are hammering the business community with signage as you read this, and OCT members are vociferously barking about how confrontational they will be if a Walmart manager asks to see a CHL.

I am a little chagrined to see how vapid our own efforts are to push the other way. I guess about all we can do is try out best to be good, friendly ambassadors for CC/OC, and hope to generate some kind of change in the next legislative session, whatever that may be.

[chuck j]

How bout deporting all OCT and OCTC members to Vermont or Mexico ?

[sugar land dave]

We have fought to extend our rights for years. Charles Cotton has literally written the laws we presently have. OC would not have passed without Charles' work with the legislature. In the past 20 years licensed gun owners in Texas have amassed an unparalleled record of abiding by the law, proving the anti-gunners false claims about gun carriers wrong. Now, a small but very vocal crowd is running around like bulls in a china shop, riling up the population, demanding rights that they don't even have and insisting that their way is the right way and destroying years and years of hard work.

OC if you want to, but obey the law and act like an adult. Don't destroy 20 years of hard labor through selfishness and ignorance.

For me personally, I'm very angry right now, because I think this behavior is going to make it extremely hard for us to move forward with what for some of us are very cherished goals - the right to carry anywhere a LEO can carry. OC may now make that impossible, especially with the belligerent attitudes of some of the OCers.

As you point out, there is a divide over this issue. But the divide is not a petty one. It's the difference between doing things the right way, the law abiding way, the peaceful way, and doing things by stirring up trouble at every turn, portraying a horrible image for licensed carriers and turning the public against us.

I just wanted to remind that Alice Tripp has been a great help to the cause also. I am sure Charles appreciates her as we should also.

http://www.mystatesman.com/news/news/op ... e-g/nn56Q/

[DaveT]

Agree whole heartedly!
I did a tour in Afghanistan for our rights, freedoms, and to fight back against those that would take them away. I am very surprised at this forum in general, I am new, but I thought I was joining a place where people were interested in advancing our rights as enumerated in our countries founding. However I see a lot of CC only people griefing people who are interested in OC. It is always an interesting human dynamic, that not matter how much alike a group is they always find a way to divide over some issue. It saddens me.

First off, thanks for your service.

If I may, here's a slightly different way to look at what you've posted above...... I did two tours in Vietnam, whenever we got back to a rear area we would usually visit the Red Cross places where they had a TV. There was only one channel and that was Armed forces TV. We would mostly watch old recorded news shows from 'back home' so we could keep up with what was happening.

At the height of the protests back home, we watched weeks old news reports of all the demonstrations. One evening I asked my old and wise platoon sergeant why we were in Vietnam if so many people didn't want us there? His answer was one I've never forgotten.... He said we were there to assure those people the right to a differing opinion, and to demonstrate if they thought that was the way to express their point of view. In other words, freedom at work.

It's no different with the many differing viewpoints expressed here on the forum. While you may not agree with some points of view, you served our country honorably to preserve those differing opinions.... even those vastly different from yours.

I certainly don't agree with everything I read here, and I was totally against folks walking around with AR's and AK's trying to push their point of view, but I am not saddened by it...... I am reminded that we are all very lucky to be living in a country where freedom works, even when being expressed differently than we believe.

[chuck j]

.....................................................GOOD POST .

[Unocat]

Agree whole heartedly!
I did a tour in Afghanistan for our rights, freedoms, and to fight back against those that would take them away. I am very surprised at this forum in general, I am new, but I thought I was joining a place where people were interested in advancing our rights as enumerated in our countries founding. However I see a lot of CC only people griefing people who are interested in OC. It is always an interesting human dynamic, that not matter how much alike a group is they always find a way to divide over some issue. It saddens me.

First off, thanks for your service.

If I may, here's a slightly different way to look at what you've posted above...... I did two tours in Vietnam, whenever we got back to a rear area we would usually visit the Red Cross places where they had a TV. There was only one channel and that was Armed forces TV. We would mostly watch old recorded news shows from 'back home' so we could keep up with what was happening.

At the height of the protests back home, we watched weeks old news reports of all the demonstrations. One evening I asked my old and wise platoon sergeant why we were in Vietnam if so many people didn't want us there? His answer was one I've never forgotten.... He said we were there to assure those people the right to a differing opinion, and to demonstrate if they thought that was the way to express their point of view. In other words, freedom at work.

It's no different with the many differing viewpoints expressed here on the forum. While you may not agree with some points of view, you served our country honorably to preserve those differing opinions.... even those vastly different from yours.

I certainly don't agree with everything I read here, and I was totally against folks walking around with AR's and AK's trying to push their point of view, but I am not saddened by it...... I am reminded that we are all very lucky to be living in a country where freedom works, even when being expressed differently than we believe.

Thank you for your service as well - I was in diapers during Vietnam, but I supported the troops!

Maybe I should have placed a blank line between the two thoughts in that paragraph. The first thought was about agreeing with an above post about our rights constantly under fire and being taken away from the people and the states. The second thought was that there are clearly, within this auspicious group two camps being set up. Those that seem to be against OC and those that are for OC. Granted there are a lot of us that are somewhere in the middle of the field, but some of the nastiness and fighting is on this issue. So it saddens me that no matter how many times you slice a group of people into what appears to be a homogeneous sliver, that group finds a way to divide itself over something... hair color, eye color CC/OC. etc... Mr Cotton had a good posted somewhere recently about the fact that it is the law and we should strive to be part of it as written... and that in the future it maybe likely that these two camps will need to part ways (a loose paraphrase, if you will).

[baldeagle]

We have fought to extend our rights for years. Charles Cotton has literally written the laws we presently have. OC would not have passed without Charles' work with the legislature. In the past 20 years licensed gun owners in Texas have amassed an unparalleled record of abiding by the law, proving the anti-gunners false claims about gun carriers wrong. Now, a small but very vocal crowd is running around like bulls in a china shop, riling up the population, demanding rights that they don't even have and insisting that their way is the right way and destroying years and years of hard work.

OC if you want to, but obey the law and act like an adult. Don't destroy 20 years of hard labor through selfishness and ignorance.

For me personally, I'm very angry right now, because I think this behavior is going to make it extremely hard for us to move forward with what for some of us are very cherished goals - the right to carry anywhere a LEO can carry. OC may now make that impossible, especially with the belligerent attitudes of some of the OCers.

As you point out, there is a divide over this issue. But the divide is not a petty one. It's the difference between doing things the right way, the law abiding way, the peaceful way, and doing things by stirring up trouble at every turn, portraying a horrible image for licensed carriers and turning the public against us.

I just wanted to remind that Alice Tripp has been a great help to the cause also. I am sure Charles appreciates her as we should also.

http://www.mystatesman.com/news/news/op ... e-g/nn56Q/

Thanks, sugar land dave. I keep forgetting to mention Alice, and she has definitely been a large contributor to our fight.

[Lena]

Would Alice possibly be Virgil's wife?

[LTUME1978]

Post moved.

[doncb]

The folks at MDA must be laughing at us. We won the battle but lost the war. Well, maybe the war hasn't been lost but now nothing can be done for 2 years and we get to look forward to OCT / OCTC screwing things up even more.

[RedTop]

I don't have a dog in this fight. I will never OC. I think it's stupid to tip my hand to criminals. But I am old enough to sit back, read and think about things before responding. And here's what I see. Some people are reporting locations that have never had signs before now posting both 30.07 and 30.06. So now they can't carry where they used to be able to. The response of the OC crowd? Oh, they're probably false reports. Or oh, you're exaggerating. Or oh, chill out. It's no big deal. The exact same response we got before OC passed when people expressed concerns about heightened scrutiny of signs. IOW, it's the expression of a belief or position, not an expression of evidence.

It won't affect me much. I'm retired. I seldom go out, and when I do, I'm always carrying concealed. If some place has put up 30.06 signs now, I'll adjust and go somewhere else. What irks me is that people can protest loudly about how they support the 2nd Amendment, but when the rubber meets the road they never give a second's thought to how their actions impact the other ONE MILLION people who also carry. They're all about me, me, me. This business has no right to question me for carrying a gun, they say in a huff. Well, sorry, but you're ignorant. There's no other way to put it. You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Just today I saw someone arguing that there's a difference between private clubs and public businesses, and public businesses have no right to question them about their LTC. No. You're ignorant. You don't understand the law.

At least for now, OC has made things much worse for gun owners, and they can thank the so-called activists, who chose public confrontation over the tried and true method of working within the legislature. Whether that will improve in the future remains to be seen. But the only victory activists can claim here is a hollow one. Now you can strut around with your gun on your hip in a rapidly decreasing number of places, and you took down the entire one million licensees with you. Congratulations on your "victory".

[baseballguy2001]

Since posting I haven't seen any signs in my area, suddenly LOTS of signs have arrived. A few where days ago no sign was posted. I think ten days in, finally the businesses in my area decided to get on the ball. Or they all had signs ordered and and they are now arriving. Anywho, still haven't seen any open carriers, but now I'm seeing signs go up.

[RonW956]

I expect that the various anti-gun factions who lurk on this forum are ROFLTAO at the bickering and division among the pro-gunners over an issue that, given an opportunity, will die down.

How 'bout let's all calm down, cool our jets, act like responsible and mature adults and nobody write nothing about nothing for ONE WEEK? We are all Texans, let's act like it.

Finally someone with some common sence..... Like I said, this is the same exact thing we experienced back in '95 when conceal carry passed... it will die down by this summer...