Concealed Carry on High School Football Stadium

[stevie_d_64]

We do need a good clean-up of the code, but every change carries risks of something inadvertent (or even malicious) slipping in there.

My favorite suggestion is to just delete Chapter 46.

I have a motion on the floor, do I have a second???

SECOND!

I have a motion and it has been seconded...

Any debate??? None heard???

All in favor say aye!

[bryang]

-aye!

-geo

[waterpump1]

-aye!

-geo

[E.Marquez]

Older thread, but current issue so brought back from the dead.

Who decided s what "grounds" are and how far they extend from the site of the school event?
Is it the school? School board? Local police?

I wont yet name the school, or city...as this is likely to go farther then an internet forum. NO Arrests have yet been made. No charges brought.

High School parking lot that is directly adjacent to the foot ball stadium... Local school position (as heard from only one employee, and only by a stretch is that person in a position to speak for the school) is that "grounds" includes the parking lot, all the way to the public sidewalk.

Vice my reading of the law, which I believe makes the stadium off limits (in use only or all the time is another issue, but for this lets say all the time)
The parking area however is not covered under the restriction best i can see.

But who decides what the "grounds" are?

Local law is likely to side with the school..to include enforcement, arrest and charge. I don't know that, but someone familiar with the are believes them to be anti CHL.
Yes I will get a lawyer involved when Im fairly sure I know what the issue is, applicable laws, and the general opinion of folks that read better then me at times.
Thinking I will start with a lawyer letter to the local PD... If they state them do not consider the parking lot part of the school grounds..then Im done. If they do, then on to the city, ISD, State, and not sure from there.

I just want to make sure I'm not missing something obvious in the code that makes this a silly question (quest) to even undertake.

Thanks

Relevant code cites
PC §46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an offense
if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a
firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds
or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution
is being conducted,"

PC46.035 (f) (3)
"(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area."

No definition I know of for "Grounds"

[RoyGBiv]

The law very specifically says "premises". And 46.035 specifically defines premises as NOT including the parking lot.

If there was a school sponsored activity going on in the parking lot, that may qualify as an off limits activity.
For example, I attended the homecoming parade for the local HS recently. At the end of the parade, they had float-judging in the parking lot of the local HS. I read that as off limits for CC. Barring anything similar, I carry in the parking lot and don't spend any time worrying about it. I'll be ok as a test case if some overzealous authority figure wants me to be hauled off for carrying where 46.035 explicitly says I can carry.

[allisji]

Under section 46.035 a license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:

2.) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event.

PC46.035 (f) (3)
"(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area."

Should not apply to the parking lot.

[E.Marquez]

The law very specifically says "premises". And 46.035 specifically defines premises as NOT including the parking lot.

If there was a school sponsored activity going on in the parking lot, that may qualify as an off limits activity.
For example, I attended the homecoming parade for the local HS recently. At the end of the parade, they had float-judging in the parking lot of the local HS. I read that as off limits for CC. Barring anything similar, I carry in the parking lot and don't spend any time worrying about it. I'll be ok as a test case if some overzealous authority figure wants me to be hauled off for carrying where 46.035 explicitly says I can carry.

If only it were that clear.. The law also states "any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school
And at least one school official contends the parking lot is by extension part of the "grounds" where a activity is being done.
Question: Where do the students park when they are at the game?
Answer: The parking lot

Question: Where do the visiting team buses park when thier students are at the game?
Answer parking lot

Question where do the visitors park while attending the game?
Answer : the parking lot
Thus according to one school employee, the parking lot is part f the grounds as cited in the law above.

I can see where parking lot is NOT restricted when it is related to the buildings.. Grounds and parking lot is less clear... I think????

[FL450]

So can you carry, with CHL, into a High School Football stadium?

A stadium is not a building, so the answer is yes, but only if there is no sporting event or school activity taking place.

But if it's not a "building," it would appear to fall under the definition of "grounds."

I've often wondered how far away the imaginary boundaries for "grounds" extends. Let's say there's a HS football game at the Cotton Bowl, clearly a school-sponsored activity. I would think (someone correct me here if I'm wrong) that Fair Park can't be posted 30.06 because it's owned by the city of Dallas. So where would carry be prohibited? Next to the stadium? A few feet away? Into the parking lot? How about across the street? On the far side of Fair Park? I-30? The northern boundary of Dallas?

(Obviously I'm exaggerating with the last two examples. But where, exactly, do the "grounds" end?)

Most HS stadiums are secured facilitys so even if a HS event was not taking place it would most likely lean toward the definition of premises. I would not want to be the case law subject.
A low fence practice field (Not stadium)when not in use would most likely be considered grounds.
Cotton Bowl during a HS event as a spectator =No. They wand you as well.
Treated as HS event the time I was there for the state playoffs with our school.

[allisji]

IMO, that school employee appears to be overstepping the boundaries of the law.

In the event of a HS football game, the law seems very clear. And I would believe that 46.035 would take precedence because it is a sporting event. The "premises" is off-limits. The parking lot is fair game. As a previous poster stated, if there is a school sponsored event (pep rally?) taking place in the parking lot then 46.03 would apply. Not sure how the School would be allowed to create their own definition of "grounds" if the event is taking place in a portion of the parking lot. Best to stay away.

An average lawyer should be able to win this case.

[mr1337]

Unless a school sponsored activity is happening in the parking lot, I don't see how it applies.

Parking your car to go to a football game is not a school sponsored activity.

Marching band practice in the parking lot WOULD be a school sponsored activity.

[RoyGBiv]

The law very specifically says "premises". And 46.035 specifically defines premises as NOT including the parking lot.

If there was a school sponsored activity going on in the parking lot, that may qualify as an off limits activity.
For example, I attended the homecoming parade for the local HS recently. At the end of the parade, they had float-judging in the parking lot of the local HS. I read that as off limits for CC. Barring anything similar, I carry in the parking lot and don't spend any time worrying about it. I'll be ok as a test case if some overzealous authority figure wants me to be hauled off for carrying where 46.035 explicitly says I can carry.

If only it were that clear.. The law also states "any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school
And at least one school official contends the parking lot is by extension part of the "grounds" where a activity is being done.
Question: Where do the students park when they are at the game?
Answer: The parking lot

Question: Where do the visiting team buses park when thier students are at the game?
Answer parking lot

Question where do the visitors park while attending the game?
Answer : the parking lot
Thus according to one school employee, the parking lot is part f the grounds as cited in the law above.

I can see where parking lot is NOT restricted when it is related to the buildings.. Grounds and parking lot is less clear... I think????

I see the linguistic point you're making... very clear.
However, 46.035 "Premises" is explicit. Parking lots are NOT off limits.

Just my opinion. IANAL.

[ScottDLS]

Is the football game (i.e. the school sponsored activity/event) "taking place on" the parking lot? Especially across the street.

The visiting team drives on I-35 on the way to the game. Is this a "school sponsored activity/event" that makes I-35 (all 580 miles of it) off limits?

[E.Marquez]

Is the football game (i.e. the school sponsored activity/event) "taking place on" the parking lot? Especially across the street.

The visiting team drives on I-35 on the way to the game. Is this a "school sponsored activity/event" that makes I-35 (all 580 miles of it) off limits?

Of course not... nor is I-35 directly attached to the stadium, nor is I-35 ISD property, nor is I-35.. well you get the idea..
In fact Id bet, you knew all that before making such a remark at all that was not related to the discussion.

I thank one and all for the responses that are, well helpful... But the rest just muddy the discussion.

[E.Marquez]

Is the football game (i.e. the school sponsored activity/event) "taking place on" the parking lot? Especially across the street.

Sorry you misunderstood what was posted, .. this parking lot in question is DIRECTLY adjacent, attached, part of the stadium. Not across the street.

And there in lies the question, while no, there are no football players making tackles on the parking lot..... the stadium grounds ...., the word grounds as is used in the law,, is the point in question.

Im not arguing here... and I THINK the same as you all have stated, it's not restricted.... I;m taking in all that has been said and what I think the law states so I can ask the question with cites, and consideration the right way.

Thank you for the responses.

[ScottDLS]

OK I see, parking lot NEXT TO the stadium. I still say should be no problem as the football game is not taking place on the lot. So the visitors walk across it to the stadium....just like my kids walk across the sidewalk and lot when I drop them off at school. I don't view that as a school sponsored activity taking place ON the school grounds, any more than the football game is taking place ON the parking lot. Yes the school does OWN the lot.

Some have argued that a school event (other than sporting event) taking place on non-school property is NOT off limits because the school doesn't have the right to control the property. So even if the Band were marching down I-35, I'd still argue not off limits .