school zones, signs size-- worth it to test the boundaries?

[Dr.Wayne]

I recently took a CHL class, and didnt really understand one point. At the time, I was thinking, "no brainer, dont go anywhere near a school (middle school, high school) carrying." I'm more curious though now. I remember my instructor saying technically you just cant go inside the building or into the arena, you can still carry on the grounds and property- true? With alot of this stuff, I almost feel like its not even worth it to test, and to just stay away. Same with improper 30.06 and 51% signs, thoughts? My instructor was basically telling us that if the signs are not posted exactly how the law expects (or slightly ripped), size/location-wise he just totally ignores them, which technically is legal, but it sounds like you could still get arrested, and then have to goto court, spend a bunch of money, then eventually get off the charge down the line.... really worth it? I guess you could say "yeah it is, if someone was going to take my life, I'd want my gun on me" but you could also say "whats the odds of that happening?" I dont know, I'm just really new to the CHL and dont want to stir up any problems and appear on the news or be arrested in front of co-workers and labeled a gun nut (even if I was legally justified because the signs weren't the proper size or something, etc). What do you think?

[n5wd]

If you will read the law, it says that you can not enter a school building, or be in an area on school property where an educational activity is taking place. If the band is practicing in the parking lot, you're not supposed to be near them. You can walk up to the front door escorting your darling school child, but you can't go in.

With signs that are specified by the Penal Code 30.06, technicalities are technicalities because the law, when it sets out a specific sequence or specification, requires that sequence or specification to be met, or it doesn't apply.

I'm sure there are people that will willingly ignore an otherwise compliant sign that doesn't have the Spanish translation (even though they don't speak Spanish -nevermind that the law requires it to be there else the sign is invalid). They might get away from being caught a hundred times. But on the 101st time, they might get popped.

You'll often see people admonish others that you "might beat the time, but you won't beat the ride." Meaning you probably won't be convicted, but you'll still have that ride downtown in the back of a patrol car.

The problem is that there's very little, if any, case law dealing with this subject because CHL holders tend to be some of the most law-abiding people in the State of Texas, according to DPS's own records, and no one wants to offer themselves up as a test case.

So, the bottom line is that people like your instructor can indeed ignore those signs that do not meet the technical definition of the law... Until someone is unlucky enough to be "volunteered by circumstances" into giving us the case law that everyone is looking for. Until then, you have to let your conscience be your guide.

[Vol Texan]

DrWayne,

I see that you have recently joined, so welcome to the forum.

You've opened up a big can of worms here...and you'll get every answer in the book. Some will say, "If they've posted anything, even if it is not valid, I won't carry." Others will measure the letters with a micrometer and state clearly that "the letters were only .9834567 inches high, so it is an invalid

So mine, like every other response you'll see here, will be tainted by my personal bias. My responses to your questions are below.

I recently took a CHL class, and didnt really understand one point. At the time, I was thinking, "no brainer, dont go anywhere near a school (middle school, high school) carrying." I'm more curious though now. I remember my instructor saying technically you just cant go inside the building or into the arena, you can still carry on the grounds and property- true?

I carry all over the school grounds, but never will I darken the door. If there is a school sponsored activity (and no, I'm not talking pickup and dropoff, but rather a football game or track practice), then I won't carry.

With alot of this stuff, I almost feel like its not even worth it to test, and to just stay away.

Everyone has to make the personal choice, based on their comfort level. I know folks that won't carry in a bank, because it 'just doesn't seem right.' Me? I carry every time I go in.

Same with improper 30.06 and 51% signs, thoughts? My instructor was basically telling us that if the signs are not posted exactly how the law expects (or slightly ripped), size/location-wise he just totally ignores them, which technically is legal, but it sounds like you could still get arrested, and then have to goto court, spend a bunch of money, then eventually get off the charge down the line.... really worth it?

Slightly ripped? Not even a consideration. If I see the sign, and it's proper (ripped or not), I don't carry. If I see the sign, and it is clearly improper (8.5 x 11 in total size / clearly the wrong wording / posted in a place where it is not valid such as the Houston Zoo), then I carry on. I don't worry so much about the 'ride', because 'concealed means concealed'.

By the way, 'concealed means concealed' is a phrase you'll often see on here. It ALWAYS means, "carry if it's legal, and don't worry about it". It NEVER means, "violate the law, because nobody will know better."

I guess you could say "yeah it is, if someone was going to take my life, I'd want my gun on me" but you could also say "whats the odds of that happening?" I dont know, I'm just really new to the CHL and dont want to stir up any problems and appear on the news or be arrested in front of co-workers and labeled a gun nut (even if I was legally justified because the signs weren't the proper size or something, etc). What do you think?

Odds of being in a confrontation where I need my gun: very, very low. Consequence of guessing wrong: injury or death to me or a loved one.
Odds of me being 'outed' as a CHL holder: very low. Consequence of guessing wrong and actually getting 'outed': If I'm carrying legally, probably not a problem.

Finally...keep reading this forum. You'll learn so much more on here than you ever learned in the class.

[Topbuilder]

OP,
Welcome to the forum.

[ScottDLS]

If you will read the law, it says that you can not enter a school building, or be in an area on school property where an educational activity is taking place. If the band is practicing in the parking lot, you're not supposed to be near them. You can walk up to the front door escorting your darling school child, but you can't go in.

With signs that are specified by the Penal Code 30.06, technicalities are technicalities because the law, when it sets out a specific sequence or specification, requires that sequence or specification to be met, or it doesn't apply.

I'm sure there are people that will willingly ignore an otherwise compliant sign that doesn't have the Spanish translation (even though they don't speak Spanish -nevermind that the law requires it to be there else the sign is invalid). They might get away from being caught a hundred times. But on the 101st time, they might get popped.

You'll often see people admonish others that you "might beat the time, but you won't beat the ride." Meaning you probably won't be convicted, but you'll still have that ride downtown in the back of a patrol car.

The problem is that there's very little, if any, case law dealing with this subject because CHL holders tend to be some of the most law-abiding people in the State of Texas, according to DPS's own records, and no one wants to offer themselves up as a test case.

So, the bottom line is that people like your instructor can indeed ignore those signs that do not meet the technical definition of the law... Until someone is unlucky enough to be "volunteered by circumstances" into giving us the case law that everyone is looking for. Until then, you have to let your conscience be your guide.

I'll add that with the update of TXPC 30.06 & addition of 30.07 effective 1/1/2016, there will be significantly less risk in being the "test case" for the applicability of incorrect postings, since in most cases they will be reduced to a class C misdemeanor with a $200 fine and no jail. That is unless you refuse to depart, or if TXPC 46.03 or 46.035 also apply.

I like to think that this is due to the excellent citizenship displayed by almost all CHL holders over the last 20 years.

[locke_n_load]

FYI-come Jan 1st, carrying past a 30.06/30.07 becomes a class C misdemeanor (currently class A). May cause you to not look so hard, especially if concealed carrying. Becomes something like a parking ticket (unless you are asked to leave and don't, then it is a class A again).

I plan on OCing when I start dropping my daughter off at school (in public driveway).

Mainly, just stay away from bars and courthouses while carrying.

[ScottDLS]

Oh yeah and Dr. Wayne...welcome to the forum.

My BIL is an ER doctor in NY who got his CHL while finishing medical school and his residency here in Texas. Since he is an ER doc he has experience treating gunshot wounds, but chooses to carry anyway, or perhaps because of this.

He also has a very hard to come by carry license in NY and is the FBI SWAT team physician in his region.

[Richbirdhunter]

My daughter plays soccer with Lake Highlands at UTD. can I carry on the field ?

[oohrah]

Of course not. Sporting events are off-limits by a different statute as well.

And FYI, even when violating 30.06 becomes a Class C in Jan 1, it will still be a Class A if walking past a 30.06 on a college campus (PC 46.035).

[Dr.Wayne]

Oh yeah and Dr. Wayne...welcome to the forum.

My BIL is an ER doctor in NY who got his CHL while finishing medical school and his residency here in Texas. Since he is an ER doc he has experience treating gunshot wounds, but chooses to carry anyway, or perhaps because of this.

He also has a very hard to come by carry license in NY and is the FBI SWAT team physician in his region.

man how cool is that

[surprise_i'm_armed]

With regards to carrying within a school's property, one of the applicable
laws is the 1968 GFSZA (Gun Free School Zones Act). It states that a person
may not possess a firearm on a school's property UNLESS they have a CHL.

As long as you have your firearm on your person, or in your vehicle, you are
legal as long as you have a CHL. You just can't carry into a school building,
or to a sporting event.

People who have a firearm in their vehicle without having a CHL are carrying
under the authority of the MPA (Motorists Protection Act). Without a CHL it seems to me that
they would technically be in violation of the GFSZA of 1968.

Plano, Texas (Collin County, north of Dallas) ISD incorrectly posts some or all of their schools
with the 30.06 postings. If Plano ISD wanted to be more accurate, they would post the 1968 GFSZA
language. The short version of the 1968 GFSZA simply states "no guns/no weapons" or similar,
but leaves out the part where possession of a firearm is OK if the person has a CHL.

I believe that I have stated all the above correctly. If any fellow board members wish to correct
or embellish upon my points, the floor is yours.

By the way OP, my primary EDC is also a Springer XDS .45 in 3.3" barrel.

SIA

[ScottDLS]

GFSZA of 1990 and revised after US vs. Lopez in 1995. Not to be confused with the GCA of 1968, revised by FOPA in 1986.

As for PISD, somebody ought to challenge them on the 30.06 signs, though I guess they might argue they are allowed to post IAW 46.03 & 46.035. I think that's misleading since those don't necessarily apply to the parking lots posted and additionally don't require a 30.06 where they are applicable.

But this is the the school district that's not a Government Entity (according to them), much to the surprise of numerous Collin County taxpayers.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

ScottDLS:

Thank you for the updates on federal laws related to firearms/schools.

SIA

[locke_n_load]

GFSZA of 1990 and revised after US vs. Lopez in 1995. Not to be confused with the GCA of 1968, revised by FOPA in 1986.

As for PISD, somebody ought to challenge them on the 30.06 signs, though I guess they might argue they are allowed to post IAW 46.03 & 46.035. I think that's misleading since those don't necessarily apply to the parking lots posted and additionally don't require a 30.06 where they are applicable.

But this is the the school district that's not a Government Entity (according to them), much to the surprise of numerous Collin County taxpayers.

30.06 can apply to property like parking lots. 30.06 says "property", while 46.035 states "premises" - inside a building.
So a private business can post their parking lot with 30.06 and bar you from stepping out of your vehicle with your CHL carried weapon, but places that are off limit via 46.035 use "premises", meaning you can't walk inside, but public spaces like driveways and parking lots are ok.
PISD would probably be proven to be owned by a political subdivision of the state, in which case 30.06 would not apply, but the GFZA and 46.035 do - so with CHL/LTC, carry in the public spaces is ok.

EDIT: Scott, after reading your post a couple of times, I think we're on the same page.

[JP171]

Of course not. Sporting events are off-limits by a different statute as well.

And FYI, even when violating 30.06 becomes a Class C in Jan 1, it will still be a Class A if walking past a 30.06 on a college campus (PC 46.035).

the highlighted is incorrect as written, conditions must be met for sporting event to be off limits.

PC §46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally,
knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter
H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is
concealed, on or about the license holder’s person:

(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting
event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a
participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;


so that means that if your daughter's soccer is not connected to or sponsored by the school you can carry no matter where its at