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Just asking a dumb question.

Abramski said the gun was for him.
He lied.
But the statute was written to prevent a lawful gun owner from purchasing a gun for someone who could not lawfully purchase a firearm.
Both people involved were lawful gun owners.

Is there a way to limit question on the 4473 (or any other government form), to questions that are part of the statute?

What if they were to ask
What color is your hair? (What if it's more grey now?)
What is your favorite movie? (What if you change your mind?)
What is the name of the county of your father's birth?
What is your mothers maiden name?

The great Dr. John Lott (yes, I've promoted him to "the great") has another excellent article on the recent case:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/06/ ... bout-guns/

I agree with the author, the court made a bad call all the way around.

A straw purchase is not just for those that can't buy one, it also includes those that don't want to fill the form out for themselves for any reason. Abramski purposely went to the dealer with his Uncle's money to purchase the firearm for the Uncle, but to get his LEO discount. Abramski lied on the form stating that he was the transferree, when in fact the buy had been prearranged between him and the Uncle. Had Abramski used his own money to purchase the firearm then later transferred it to his Uncle they would have never been able to prove the premeditation in the purchase.

The ruling does not really affect anything, read the form and don't lie and there should not be a problem. There are numerous things I would change on a 4473 but I doubt the ATF will ever ask for my input on what should go on the 4473.......

mrvmax wrote:The ruling does not really affect anything, read the form and don't lie and there should not be a problem. There are numerous things I would change on a 4473 but I doubt the ATF will ever ask for my input on what should go on the 4473.......

More broadly: The ATF _never_ takes input from actual FFLs. That would mean they listen to logical arguments.

Bottom line: Don't buy a gun as an agent of somebody else. You can buy a gun yourself and GIVE it to a person (that's the legal definition of a "gift").

This case should never have gone to the supreme court, there was never a doubt that the form was falsified.

P.S. - 4473s aren't yellow anymore, unless you are filling out the Spanish version.

mrvmax wrote:The ruling does not really affect anything, read the form and don't lie and there should not be a problem.

However, although he wouldn't have gotten in trouble, if he had told the truth he also would have been denied and the sale would not have gone through.

OldCannon Wrote:

P.S. - 4473s aren't yellow anymore, unless you are filling out the Spanish version.

I guess it really isn't all that cool to always wear yellow lensed shooting glasses to the toy store.

Perhaps that's why I hadn't noticed the color change.


The point I unsuccessfully tried to make was:
What's to stop the B.A.T.F.E. from adding questions to the form then prosecuting gun purchasers for lying on a government form.

Can they prosecute you for lying about your height and weight?

What if you've always thought you were part Indian (because of family stories) then find out later you're not? Is that lying on a government form?


When I asked about getting them to limit the questions, I was thinking lawsuits or federal legislation.

tomneal wrote:OldCannon Wrote:

P.S. - 4473s aren't yellow anymore, unless you are filling out the Spanish version.

I guess it really isn't all that cool to always wear yellow lensed shooting glasses to the toy store.

Perhaps that's why I hadn't noticed the color change.


The point I unsuccessfully tried to make was:
What's to stop the B.A.T.F.E. from adding questions to the form then prosecuting gun purchasers for lying on a government form.

Can they prosecute you for lying about your height and weight?

What if you've always thought you were part Indian (because of family stories) then find out later you're not? Is that lying on a government form?


When I asked about getting them to limit the questions, I was thinking lawsuits or federal legislation.

Nothing to stop them. Falsifying a government document is a crime, period. I think depending on what you lie about would determine how interested in prosecuting you they would be.

tomneal wrote:Can they prosecute you for lying about your height and weight?

Interesting you worded it this way.
As when I got my CHL, I was much heavier (Ok, FAT!).
When I last bought a handgun (at Academy), they said I had to write the weight as stated on my CHL, vs my actual weight.

So I actually lied on the form, but was told to do so by them.

tomneal wrote:OldCannon Wrote:

P.S. - 4473s aren't yellow anymore, unless you are filling out the Spanish version.

The point I unsuccessfully tried to make was:
What's to stop the B.A.T.F.E. from adding questions to the form then prosecuting gun purchasers for lying on a government form.

Can they prosecute you for lying about your height and weight?

What if you've always thought you were part Indian (because of family stories) then find out later you're not? Is that lying on a government form?

I have an answer for you, and it's 100% correct:
1) The BATFE can change the 4473 at will. They did in 2012 when they added the much-hated "Ethnicity" checkbox
2) The 4473 is a complete, legal document. That is, the document isn't just the part that gets filled out, it's ALL the "back pages" attached to it. Those back pages give SPECIFIC guidance on how to answer each question in the document. A lack of guidance means there is no enforceable standard by which you are obligated to respond. That is, you must answer something, but there is an implicit "obviousness" to the answer. For instance, question 5 in section A (your weight), there is no comment in the "Notices, Instructions, and Definitions" back pages that says you can't fib about your weight, although if you say you weight 400lbs when you actually weight 150, it might screw up the background check. Section 10a (Ethnicity) and 10b (Race) are even more interesting, since there's no guidelines there either. My grandmother is Spanish, should I say I'm hispanic? (answer: No, because my grandmother would kill me).

When in doubt, the guidance MUST be in the 4473. Otherwise it's not enforceable as a legal standard.

P.S. - Interestingly, the guidance in section 11a ("Actual Transferee/Buyer") actually refers to the EXACT scenario that went to the supreme court in the example on the 4473, citing that the buyer is not the actual transferee. Which again solidifies my claim that the case should NEVER have gone to the supreme court.

mrvmax wrote:The ruling does not really affect anything, read the form and don't lie and there should not be a problem. There are numerous things I would change on a 4473 but I doubt the ATF will ever ask for my input on what should go on the 4473.......

My only change would be elimination of the form and the ATF.

Keith B wrote:

tomneal wrote:OldCannon Wrote:

P.S. - 4473s aren't yellow anymore, unless you are filling out the Spanish version.

I guess it really isn't all that cool to always wear yellow lensed shooting glasses to the toy store.

Perhaps that's why I hadn't noticed the color change.


The point I unsuccessfully tried to make was:
What's to stop the B.A.T.F.E. from adding questions to the form then prosecuting gun purchasers for lying on a government form.

Can they prosecute you for lying about your height and weight?

What if you've always thought you were part Indian (because of family stories) then find out later you're not? Is that lying on a government form?


When I asked about getting them to limit the questions, I was thinking lawsuits or federal legislation.

Nothing to stop them. Falsifying a government document is a crime, period. I think depending on what you lie about would determine how interested in prosecuting you they would be.[/quote

This guy knew he was not telling the truth on the form. This was about cheating some dealer out of money because they allowed a LE discount that the uncle wanted. To me this thing is wrong in so many ways but as everyone said didn't change anything lying on the form has always been wrong.

OldCurlyWolf wrote:

mrvmax wrote:The ruling does not really affect anything, read the form and don't lie and there should not be a problem. There are numerous things I would change on a 4473 but I doubt the ATF will ever ask for my input on what should go on the 4473.......

My only change would be elimination of the form and the ATF.

That would solve a lot of problems.