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The NSA considers us "adversaries," not citizens

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:06 pm
by VMI77
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/s ... s-security
Among other things, the program is designed to "insert vulnerabilities into commercial encryption systems". These would be known to the NSA, but to no one else, including ordinary customers, who are tellingly referred to in the document as "adversaries".
Anybody who still thinks they're doing this to "protect us" or stop "terrorists" is delusional. This is for consolidating and increasing their power to subjugate us.


And this is the modern face of fascism:
It is used by the NSA to "to leverage sensitive, co-operative relationships with specific industry partners" to insert vulnerabilities into security products. Operatives were warned that this information must be kept top secret "at a minimum".

A more general NSA classification guide reveals more detail on the agency's deep partnerships with industry, and its ability to modify products. It cautions analysts that two facts must remain top secret: that NSA makes modifications to commercial encryption software and devices "to make them exploitable", and that NSA "obtains cryptographic details of commercial cryptographic information security systems through industry relationships".

Re: The NSA considers us "adversaries," not citizens

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:15 pm
by cb1000rider
Show the original document. Is the NSA really calling all American citizens adversaries or are they referring to gathering actionable intelligence from people who are acting against the USA who are referred to as adversaries?

Hint, it'll be in the context of the actual NSA document which seems to be absent for reference. Until then, don't believe the media spin..

To me, it's no different than the TSA or arresting people for carrying long guns publicly in Texas. That is, it's an attempt to determine our willingness to balance our constitutional rights against our government's interest in promoting safety and security.

I have no doubt that giving the government the ability to decrypt all secure communications will result in actionable intelligence. I also believe it's a measure of unreasonable search without cause.

Know what will change it for me? A documented case of the government using secret (unauthorized) intelligence against it's own people in order to prosecute something like tax evasion...

Re: The NSA considers us "adversaries," not citizens

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:34 pm
by VMI77
cb1000rider wrote:Show the original document. Is the NSA really calling all American citizens adversaries or are they referring to gathering actionable intelligence from people who are acting against the USA who are referred to as adversaries?

Hint, it'll be in the context of the actual NSA document which seems to be absent for reference. Until then, don't believe the media spin..

To me, it's no different than the TSA or arresting people for carrying long guns publicly in Texas. That is, it's an attempt to determine our willingness to balance our constitutional rights against our government's interest in promoting safety and security.

I have no doubt that giving the government the ability to decrypt all secure communications will result in actionable intelligence. I also believe it's a measure of unreasonable search without cause.

Know what will change it for me? A documented case of the government using secret (unauthorized) intelligence against it's own people in order to prosecute something like tax evasion...
You need to keep up with the news. They're already doing that. It's already been reported that the NSA feeds spy data to the DEA, then the DEA lies about where it came from and either gives it to local police to act on, or acts on it themselves. You're not going to see a documented case. I don't understand why you would believe ANYTHING the government says as many times as they been caught lying....even under oath before Congress. The government lies and doesn't care what we think. The president lies brazenly and openly. And btw, read the quotes from the article, in one sentence the NSA refers to consumers and OTHER adversaries.

Re: The NSA considers us "adversaries," not citizens

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:46 pm
by cb1000rider
VMI77 wrote: You need to keep up with the news. They're already doing that. It's already been reported that the NSA feeds spy data to the DEA, then the DEA lies about where it came from and either gives it to local police to act on, or acts on it themselves. You're not going to see a documented case. I don't understand why you would believe ANYTHING the government says as many times as they been caught lying....
Actually, I'm aware of what you're referencing. It was reported that the NSA was passing information to the DEA and other governmental agencies for use in prosecution, stipulating that the source of the information could not be referenced.

So you and I heard the same report...

I don't put a lot of faith in our government's ability to tell the whole truth when in comes to surveillance and intelligence. However, I put even LESS trust in media reports as they're usually rife with political agenda.

One thing that you've shown me is that sensational and marginally true media reports spread like wildfire.. I get similar things forwarded to my email inbox by well-meaning friends who don't bother to actually look at the facts and simply forward on the sensationalism and believe it on face value. Many of these reports have very little bearing in truth and I can just see someone sitting back in their armchair as the latest email gets forwarded around the world on face value.

Getting back to the topic - If I saw the NSA text I could agree or disagree with your assessment. What I'm not going to do is help the media continue to spin until I see the factual basis of the report.

BTW, I do believe our government is spying on citizens.. Perhaps "mostly" unintentionally. However, I want a credible and factual report of the US government using unauthorized domestic intelligence in prosecutions before I go on the war path about it. As far as I know, there are no proven cases... Yet... If they exist, they'll show up one day soon.

Re: The NSA considers us "adversaries," not citizens

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:07 pm
by JP171
conspiracy theorists unite now and bring the Monolithic US GUBBERMINT to its knees!!!! we must remember to keep our tinfoil and copper outer wear on and sealed and bonded so that THE GUBBERMINT kaint finger it out what we is doin.


ok nuff with the conspiracy stuff, it isn't getting old its been old. yea the report probably says a lot of things and most of it will be out of context. the alphabet agencies that make up the government can't find their own butt with a map both hands and a flashlight even with a 1 hour block of instruction. so wail on and when it never happens your going to be a scientologist, but remember don't drink the purple kool aid

Re: The NSA considers us "adversaries," not citizens

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:19 pm
by Strat9mm
JP171 wrote:conspiracy theorists unite now and bring the Monolithic US GUBBERMINT to its knees!!!! we must remember to keep our tinfoil and copper outer wear on and sealed and bonded so that THE GUBBERMINT kaint finger it out what we is doin.


ok nuff with the conspiracy stuff, it isn't getting old its been old. yea the report probably says a lot of things and most of it will be out of context. the alphabet agencies that make up the government can't find their own butt with a map both hands and a flashlight even with a 1 hour block of instruction. so wail on and when it never happens your going to be a scientologist, but remember don't drink the purple kool aid
I don't know what you're on, or what demon seems to be possessing you at the moment and preventing you from being more lucid, but it seems most people including those in Congress seem to be on the same stuff.

To catch a few terrorists, our own government has been shown to be capturing pretty much ALL telephone and internet communications of ALL U.S. Citizens. Here's a tip, the ENEMIES who HATE us and want to rape, torture, behead and enslave us, are -overseas-. Go bug them. Pun not intended. Some like to brag about taking the head off the snake, or of 'winning hearts and minds'. None of it has really worked, has it? It never will. There's only one way to make war and win, and it requires NO concern for collateral damages. Anyone who disagrees, has history to show them them their error. After all, the enemy didn't mind killing about 3,000 American CIVILIANS, so why should we care about theirs? In fact, the enemy has rarely ever cared about civilian casualties. And only when WE have, have we lost wars.

Back to the point, as for bugging the entire United States of America, and using tech companies to do it, doesn't that make the average citizen who is being bugged, an ADVERSARY by default? The next person that says that they only get 'metadata', is an idiot. Who REALLY believes they only trap the date time and end points of either a phone call or any internet traffic? Is anyone really that naive, or are they just play-acting for some reason? And now we see that they have had active relationships (coerced or otherwise) with tech companies to provide access to hardware and software via 'back-doors', and we still have 'doubting Thomases' who don't believe all this stuff is going on, and worse, others in Congress who seem powerless to act?

Just an FYI, but there are many companies out there who have their own I.T. departments who can not only monitor EVERYONE's internet activities, but also have the ability to decrypt your communications and see your passwords, including banking passwords, if they wanted to. And this is with standard commercially available hardware. There is security software you can buy for yourself that will turn on your camera on your computer or laptop and track it if it gets stolen. Even the State Department warned visitors to China during their Olympics to NOT turn on their Blackberries, because the Chinese could hack into them and turn on the mic's and the camera's w/o the user's knowledge, and continue to use that infected phone when the person returned to the U.S.

So if a regular company can do these things, and the Chinese were already DOING these things YEARS AGO, what do you think OUR government can do? Answer: they can see and hear ANYTHING you do if they wanted to LIVE, in REAL time. And the 'analysts' who see and hear this, don't really need a court order to do it.

Banking companies do it all the time, using keystroke loggers on their own employees computers for security and audit purposes. I.T. departments can see EXACTLY what you are looking at on your own computer screen, LIVE, in real time, if they want to. And all this news about what the NSA is doing is surprising? Really? What do you think your company can do with YOUR 'work' cell phone? Take a guess. And if they can do it, what do you think the NSA can do? Come on people.

It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to realize this, especially in this day and age. Then again, perhaps you should read more. Ignoring or not using modern technological capabilities doesn't make them non-existent, it just means you're ignorant.

We really didn't have to bug the entire United States, let alone most of the rest of the world to stop the hostilities of aggressive MUSLIM nations run by egotistical evil self-serving tyrants who steal, i.e. EMBEZZLE, all the 'AID' they receive from the United States and who care next to nothing for their own people. Really, all we had to do was bomb the hell out of anyone who harmed our citizens, and let those enemies of ours deal with the mess they caused and rebuild themselves if they STILL harbored animosity against the United States. It worked in WW-II, but only because there were NO considerations for collateral damage, which resulted in a populace which was FORCED to rethink their 'ways' AND THEIR LEADERS. Since they did, we helped them, and they're now allies.

In case anybody hasn't noticed, the people in Afghanistan, Iraq and the rest of the Muslim world for that matter, have NOT relented of their hatred of the West. They kill and rape us anytime they have a chance, when they're not too busy killing each other in the name of their 'peaceful religion'.

Haven't seen any pictures of the bodies of our fallen war hero's, have we? Perhaps there's a reason for that. Perhaps if we saw those, this entire country would declare a righteous war in a heartbeat against the animals who rape, torture and kill our warriors and people. But perhaps everyone's too 'peace-loving' for those sentiments, until it shows up at your own doorstep...

But since everyone wants to be politically correct, including assuming that the "moderates" in Islam are peace-lovers, and that we all should be their 'friends', well, we all just sealed our own fate.

Having cameras on every street corner, and bugging every PC and phone in America won't catch or stop the bad guys who hate us.

And people really believe our enemies didn't ALREADY know all about our eavesdropping capabilities? Really? Who again is that NAIVE?

FYI, Our enemies who hate us are all just laughing at us because of the ineptitude, stupidity and cowardice of our 'leaders' and the people who have been blinded by political correctness.

You'll find it's a weakness none of them are burdened with. They don't care for Americans, Christians, or Jews. In fact, they hate our guts, and that's the truth.

So much for 'tolerance'.

Our enemies have none.

There is only one country in Africa and the Middle East where one SHOULD be safe and live peacefully with rights similar to those of our own nation, and that is the tiny country of Israel.

I said, SHOULD be safe, because those few million brave Israeli's have been holding out against hundreds of millions of surrounding Arabs who hate them and love to blow them up at every opportunity. Hence the 'should' be safe comment. And what does the U.S. do? We FORCE them to have idiotic 'peace processes' which endanger their citizens and practically prevent them from defending themselves. Yet when the U.S. is attacked, we (rightly!) start wars! The word for that people, is HYPOCRISY, and it's had MURDEROUS results for the Israelis.

So now we have an Administration which is obsequious to the point of nausea towards Muslims, especially Al-Qaeda linked Muslims (see Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Syrian and Libyan Rebels, and I thought we didn't negotiate with terrorists?), yet is more than willing to turn a blind eye to the welfare of Israel and leave them twisting in the wind with barely an outward show of support. The situation is not only revolting and HYPOCRITICAL, it's TRAITOROUS, and will only get worse. The brave hero's of the Alamo would have been disgusted with the way this country has dealt with the vastly outnumbered Israelis (who look just like US, because they're RELATED!), and with our own people.

This country is way overloaded with STUPID right now, and it WILL be the death of us, LITERALLY.

Re: The NSA considers us "adversaries," not citizens

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:47 am
by JP171
Lovely Tirade Strat9mm just lovely "rlol"

Re: The NSA considers us "adversaries," not citizens

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:04 am
by Abraham
Why am I reminded of "War and Peace"?

Oh right, verbosity...

Re: The NSA considers us "adversaries," not citizens

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:59 pm
by rbwhatever1
I like Israel. Awesome people and awesome soldiers. Pulled into Haifa many times for port calls over the years and the people are amazing. Israeli Citizens would line up to take American servicemen to their homes for a home cooked meal when the ships pulled in. A Lady named Gilla used to run the USO along with a lanky bearded guy with an "Uncle Sam beard" and a black leather jacket with hundreds of pins whose name escapes me. Gilla was entirely responsible for building the Marine Beirut Memorial on Mount Carmel for the 241 Americans who were killed in the barracks bombing. She planted 241 olive trees in a corridor facing towards Beirut from that mountain. She would not let anyone forget those Americans and since I lost a lot of friends in that explosion I always remember her when I think of them. She was a mother to all who entered that USO and she would never close the doors when the 6th Fleet was in port as long as a serviceman was on liberty there. Cold beer, good food and good people in Israel. Did I mention the beautiful girls? Better stop while I'm ahead....

Israel is as close as you will get to a "Foreign Country" in the mirror image of the United States...

Re: The NSA considers us "adversaries," not citizens

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:02 pm
by Strat9mm
JP171 wrote:Lovely Tirade Strat9mm just lovely "rlol"
Tirade?

Odd but, you didn't even attempt to disprove a single thing that was written, as if you ever could.

You must think that aiding and abetting, and even paying billions of dollars to the enemies of the U.S. while they kill our people is the right thing to do.

It's a bit obvious you already drank the Kool-aid.

That's too bad.

Re: The NSA considers us "adversaries," not citizens

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:11 pm
by Strat9mm
Abraham wrote:Why am I reminded of "War and Peace"?

Oh right, verbosity...
You didn't bother addressing any of the points I made.

But no matter. I already knew what the score was. And we've already lost.

Thanks for keeping your head stuck in the sand.

It's undignified to say the least, and it does leave one 'open' to certain even worse 'indignities'.

Have fun with that.

You and the prior poster just proved the very last point in the post.

Re: The NSA considers us "adversaries," not citizens

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:15 pm
by Strat9mm
rbwhatever1 wrote:I like Israel. Awesome people and awesome soldiers. Pulled into Haifa many times for port calls over the years and the people are amazing. Israeli Citizens would line up to take American servicemen to their homes for a home cooked meal when the ships pulled in. A Lady named Gilla used to run the USO along with a lanky bearded guy with an "Uncle Sam beard" and a black leather jacket with hundreds of pins whose name escapes me. Gilla was entirely responsible for building the Marine Beirut Memorial on Mount Carmel for the 241 Americans who were killed in the barracks bombing. She planted 241 olive trees in a corridor facing towards Beirut from that mountain. She would not let anyone forget those Americans and since I lost a lot of friends in that explosion I always remember her when I think of them. She was a mother to all who entered that USO and she would never close the doors when the 6th Fleet was in port as long as a serviceman was on liberty there. Cold beer, good food and good people in Israel. Did I mention the beautiful girls? Better stop while I'm ahead....

Israel is as close as you will get to a "Foreign Country" in the mirror image of the United States...
Agreed with every one of your points.

The Israeli's are just awesome.

They remind me daily of the Founding Fathers of the United States, and all the Patriots since then, including our heroic and selfless warfighters, who put themselves and all they had on the line for their brothers and sisters and their country, and God.

Thank you, for them.

Re: The NSA considers us "adversaries," not citizens

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:22 pm
by Strat9mm
Just an FYI, but the technical points made in my prior 'verbose' post, were based on -experience-.

This isn't a technical forum, but if anyone visited one and attempted to debate any of the technical points that were made, well, let's just say it would be an enlightening experience.

The I.T. departments of even medium sized businesses, enjoy some technical capabilities that most people frankly, are not even aware of.

Now with all the revelations being made about NSA capabilities, I'm wondering why anyone was even surprised and acting like it's never been done before.

Please.

Unfortunately, nothing is really 'private'.

I still find it hard to believe that courts in this country have ruled that we have no expectation of privacy.

That's one of the most idiotic things I have ever heard, ever.

The twisted reasoning required to make such a decision defies all logic, common sense and decency.

Re: The NSA considers us "adversaries," not citizens

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:24 pm
by Fangs
Strat9mm wrote:I don't know what you're on, or what demon seems to be possessing you at the moment and preventing you from being more lucid, but it seems most people including those in Congress seem to be on the same stuff.
You almost lost me here... was about to grab the popcorn and get comfy.

Then you made up for it with the rest of your post. My roommate is an ex-military nerd and now works I.T. and he's been saying everything you've just said for years. Think of "Enemy of the State" as more of a documentary than fiction, then realize they were still using VHS tapes when that movie came out. I wasn't surprised one bit about Snowden's claims.

I have never understood the concept of winning a war and then trying to be super best friends with the conquered. :banghead:

Re: The NSA considers us "adversaries," not citizens

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:27 pm
by Abraham
Strat9mm,

It's not the substance of what you have to say, it's your frenetic, Speaker's Corner In Hyde Park London style, I was mildly teasing...