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Manchin- Toomey Amendment

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:07 pm
by JJVP
Press Release

http://www.toomey.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=965" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bill Text

http://www.toomey.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=968" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Manchin- Toomey Amendment

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:13 pm
by AEA
I tried to read the text, but frankly I am just fed up and didn't even get thru it all.

Between the Federal and our part-time State Politicians, the well is poisoned for me.

They are gonna do whatever they want, however they can, and the input of us Peons is of no consequence.

I can only please myself, by simply ignoring all the drama.
In other words, I am finished following any of this Circus!

Re: Manchin- Toomey Amendment

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:40 pm
by Mike1951
What's even harder is referencing the listed changes to Title 18, Section 922.

Search here: http://uscode.house.gov/search/criteria.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Manchin- Toomey Amendment

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:57 pm
by baldeagle
IANAL. This is my layman's take on the bill. It provides for both an administrative and a legal process to review a determination of mental incompetency. An individual who has been labeled mentally incompetent by a government agency has recourse to both an administrative review and a judicial review of that determination. Veterans who have already been labeled as mentally incompetent by the VA and entered into NICS would have recourse to both reviews to attempt to overcome the determination.

A veteran who is capable of handling their own finances but delegates that authority to someone else cannot be found mentally incompetent for the purposes of obtaining a firearm. (This shoots down one of the VA's favorite tactics for disarming veterans.)

NICS checks will now apply to all sales at gun shows or events, and the checks will take precedence over "normal" checks occurring at the same time (at a gun store, for example.) The FBI cannot charge a fee for those checks.

A CHL will suffice for the NICS check.

180 days after the bill is signed, ALL firearms transfers between private parties will require the use of an FFL EXCEPT for intrastate sales. BUT, the state has to certify that they have similar requirements in place for those private sales. HOWEVER, sales between family members up to and including first cousins do not require a NICS check.

The government is prohibited from keeping a database of the transactions affected by this bill.

Unless I'm reading it wrong, the bill destroys New York's ability to arrest travelers when they check in weapons at the airport of if they are driving through New York to some place where they can legally possess the weapons and ammunition.

It establishes a national commission to study the causes of mass violence, including incidents that do not involve firearms and charges it specifically to look at firearms, mental health, school safety and mass media in relation to mass violence.
(2) MATTERS TO BE STUDIED.-In determining the root causes of these recurring and tragic acts of mass violence, the Commission shall study any matter that the Commission determines relevant to meeting the requirements of paragraph (1), including at a minimum-
(A) the role of schools, including the level of involvement and awareness of teachers and school administrators in the lives of their students and the availability of mental health and other resources and strategies to help detect and counter tendencies of students towards mass violence;
(B) the effectiveness of and resources available for school security strategies to prevent incidents of mass violence;
(C) the role of families and the availability of mental health and other resources and strategies to help families detect and counter tendencies toward mass violence;
(D) the effectiveness and use of, and resources available to, the mental health system in understanding, detecting, and countering tendencies toward mass violence, as well as the effects of treatments and therapies;
(E) whether medical doctors and other mental health professionals have the ability, without negative legal or professional consequences, to notify law enforcement officials when a patient is a danger to himself or others;
(F) the nature and impact of the alienation of the perpetrators of such incidents of mass violence from their schools, families, peer groups, and places of work;
(G) the role that domestic violence plays in causing incidents of mass violence;
(H) the effect of depictions of mass violence in the media, and any impact of such depictions on incidents of mass violence;
(I) the availability and nature of firearms, including the means of acquiring such firearms, and all positive and negative impacts of such availability and nature on incidents of mass violence or in preventing mass violence;
(J) the role of current prosecution rates in contributing to the availability of weapons that are used in mass violence;
(K) the availability of information regarding the construction of weapons, including explosive devices, and any impact of such information on such incidents of mass violence;
(L) the views of law enforcement officials, religious leaders, mental health experts, and other relevant officials on the root causes and prevention of mass violence;
(M) incidents in which firearms were used to stop mass violence; and
(N) any other area that the Commission determines contributes to the causes of mass violence.
(3) TESTIMONY OF VICTIMS AND SURVIVORS.-In determining the root causes of these recurring and tragic incidents of mass violence, the Commission shall, in accordance with section 144(a), take the testimony of victims and survivors to learn and memorialize their views and experiences regarding such incidents of mass violence.
(b) Recommendations.-Based on the findings of the study required under subsection (a), the Commission shall make recommendations to the President and Congress to address the causes of these recurring and tragic incidents of mass violence and to reduce such incidents of mass violence.
All in all, this looks to me like a very good bill that does not impose any additional requirements on firearms transfers with the exception of the intrastate requirement for the state to certify that it has a way to vet such transfers.
"(B) the transfer is made between an unlicensed transferor and an unlicensed transferee residing in the same State, which takes place in such State, if-
"(i) the Attorney General certifies that State in which the transfer takes place has in effect requirements under law that are generally equivalent to the requirements of this section; and
"(ii) the transfer was conducted in compliance with the laws of the State;
I'm not completely sure what this means, but it appears that the state would have to have a NICS like system in place for intrastate sales or require that all transfers take place between CHL holders. Maybe one of the legal eagles can sort that out for us.

Re: Manchin- Toomey Amendment

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:08 am
by Mike1951
It would be nice if the CHL was recognized in a sale between individuals and not just from dealers.

That would exempt most of the sales here on the forum.

Re: Manchin- Toomey Amendment

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:29 am
by Dadtodabone
$400,000,000.00 of our hard earned money for this? They've got to out of their minds.

Re: Manchin- Toomey Amendment

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:48 am
by Excaliber
My take on this odorous bill is pretty simple because it fails the constitutional test contained in this question:

If the bill were to pass, would I be able to lawfully exercise my right to keep and bear arms as freely as I could before passage?

The answer is clearly no. It is therefore clearly unconstitutional, and another step in the total dismantlement of our former liberties.

History clearly shows that hard won liberties are deliberately usurped a little bit at a time in the name of what's good for you as determined by those with power to gain. This is achieved through "compromise" until folks suddenly realize they're all gone. Things always get really ugly from there.

Compromise has no place when it comes to freedom. You either have it or you don't, and those elected officials who disregard their oaths of office and trash it in the name of "common sense" or "reasonableness" are either traitors, cowards, or both.

Re: Manchin- Toomey Amendment

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:33 am
by XinTX
It's "Universal Background Checks".
"(t)(1) Beginning on the date that is 180 days after the date of enactment of this subsection and except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any person other than a licensed dealer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed importer to complete the transfer of a firearm to any other person who is not licensed under this chapter, if such transfer occurs-
"(A) at a gun show or event, on the curtilage thereof; or
"(B) pursuant to an advertisement, posting, display or other listing on the Internet or in a publication by the transferor of his intent to transfer, or the transferee of his intent to acquire, the firearm.
So no more taking a gun to a show and selling your own personal property absent "permission" from Uncle Sugar. No more we postings. So if you post or publish a gun with the intent to transfer it to another person, THAT has to go through an FFL.

Re: Manchin- Toomey Amendment

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:39 am
by cw3van
Excaliber wrote:My take on this odorous bill is pretty simple because it fails the constitutional test contained in this question:

If the bill were to pass, would I be able to lawfully exercise my right to keep and bear arms as freely as I could before passage?

The answer is clearly no. It is therefore clearly unconstitutional, and another step in the total dismantlement of our former liberties.

History clearly shows that hard won liberties are deliberately usurped a little bit at a time in the name of what's good for you as determined by those with power to gain. This is achieved through "compromise" until folks suddenly realize they're all gone. Things always get really ugly from there.

Compromise has no place when it comes to freedom. You either have it or you don't, and those elected officials who disregard their oaths of office and trash it in the name of "common sense" or "reasonableness" are either traitors, cowards, or both.
:iagree: Yup just keep chipping away at the 2A then onto to the others 1st, 4th, just keeps on & on. :txflag:

Re: Manchin- Toomey Amendment

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:32 am
by VMI77
baldeagle wrote:IANAL. This is my layman's take on the bill. It provides for both an administrative and a legal process to review a determination of mental incompetency. An individual who has been labeled mentally incompetent by a government agency has recourse to both an administrative review and a judicial review of that determination. Veterans who have already been labeled as mentally incompetent by the VA and entered into NICS would have recourse to both reviews to attempt to overcome the determination.

All in all, this looks to me like a very good bill that does not impose any additional requirements on firearms transfers with the exception of the intrastate requirement for the state to certify that it has a way to vet such transfers.
I just skimmed through it but I don't read it quite so optimistically as you. For one thing, I don't see where an "individual" has recourse to a review of a determination of mental incompetency. It looks to me like that recourse is only granted to a Veteran who is so labeled by the VA. Also, I may be wrong because I don't have access to the referenced US Code, but it looks like, given the fact that mental health information may be conveyed without hindrance to the NICS, the Feds can make their own policy as regards to what constitutes mental incompetence and NYSAFE just about anyone they want. Administrative review is next to worthless, as those appointed to the review board will all be like minded people who will do nothing more than determine that the person is indeed mentally incompetent because such a determination was made in accordance with "policy." The only review worth more than a bucket of warm spit is a judicial review. Anyone who gets NYSAFE'D is still going to lose their guns and they're going to have to pay a lot of money for any chance to get them back.

Maybe that's not the case if the US Code has a process for the determination of incompetency that is more rigorous than a policy created by anti-gun Feds, but not knowing the US Code I can't say. What we really need to know is exactly what it will take to be labeled mentally incompetent to own or buy a gun.

Re: Manchin- Toomey Amendment

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:43 am
by RoyGBiv
GOA Initial Comments. Dated Yesterday
http://gunowners.org/congress04112013.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Although Toomey, Schumer, and Manchin have understandably tried to conceal their legislative language until it was too late to respond, the following addresses what was represented to us to be the Toomey-Schumer-Manchin sell-out.

Re: Manchin- Toomey Amendment

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:54 am
by Poldark
You really think Congress will stop this then think again.

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/04/12/p ... y-tuesday/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Manchin- Toomey Amendment

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:16 pm
by baldeagle
RoyGBiv wrote:GOA Initial Comments. Dated Yesterday
http://gunowners.org/congress04112013.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Although Toomey, Schumer, and Manchin have understandably tried to conceal their legislative language until it was too late to respond, the following addresses what was represented to us to be the Toomey-Schumer-Manchin sell-out.
This shows you how my non-lawyerly reading was so far off the mark.

Re: Manchin- Toomey Amendment

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:22 pm
by RoyGBiv
Poldark wrote:You really think Congress will stop this then think again.

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/04/12/p ... y-tuesday/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's for the children.
[BTW, somebody was going to introduce the House version eventually, this is not a surprise.]

Re: Manchin- Toomey Amendment

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:31 pm
by Jumping Frog
Here is the NRA statement in my email:
The underlying bill that will be considered by the Senate is S. 649, the so-called “Safe Communities, Safe Schools Act of 2013”. This bill would criminalize the private transfer of firearms by law-abiding citizens, requiring friends, neighbors and many family members to get government permission to exercise a fundamental right or face prosecution. It is expected that a number of amendments will be offered to S. 649, including a ban on commonly and lawfully-owned firearms and magazines and language to criminalize the private transfer of firearms through an expansion of background checks. This includes the misguided “compromise” proposal drafted by Senators Joe Manchin (D-WV), Pat Toomey (R-PA) and Chuck Schumer (D-NY).

NRA’s position on these proposals is unmistakably clear—we are unequivocally opposed to S. 649, the amendments mentioned above, and any other anti-gun amendments. As we have noted previously, expanding background checks at gun shows or elsewhere will not reduce violent crime or keep our kids safe in their schools. Given the importance of these issues, votes on all anti-gun amendments or proposals will be considered in NRA’s future candidate evaluations.

If the Senate is truly concerned about enhancing safety, rather than political grandstanding, it will replace the current provisions of S. 649 with language that is properly focused on addressing mental health inadequacies; prosecuting violent criminals; and keeping our kids safe in their schools.