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The new 4473's now make an interesting division between race and ethnicity. Obama's false "stop the flood of guns" has taken a whole new level by requiring gun dealers to require people to answer a specific question about hispanic culture identitication.

Frankly, I think it's a gross insult to anybody that's hispanic. The southwestern states have a very rich tapestry of hispanic identification and influence, while maintaining the proud independent streak that is uniquely American.

IMHO, these forms are explicitly designed to segregate and divide, and fail to serve any legitimate statistical function.



FFLs are _required_ to use these forms beginning July 9th.

Tangentially related rant time!

The 4473 is about the only "ethnicity" box I actually bother checking correctly because I have to.

Any other time I'm asked for race on a survey, job application, whatever I check "prefer not to respond" if its available or "other". My race should have no influence on admissions, job applications or anything else either positive or negative.

/rant off.

New forms seem like a waste of time and effort. Doesn't the ATF have some guns to smuggle to cartels or law abiding FFLs/gun owners to harrass?

And holder is against racial profiling.

I never know what to put.

I'm 1/4 Irish, 1/4 Polish, 1/4 Italian, and 1/4 Korean.

Does that make me Asian? But I'm only 1/4 Asian, so am I White?

Why can't I just be American?

Kythas wrote:I never know what to put.

I'm 1/4 Irish, 1/4 Polish, 1/4 Italian, and 1/4 Korean.

Does that make me Asian? But I'm only 1/4 Asian, so am I White?

Why can't I just be American?

I am:

1/32 Javanese
7/32 Norwegian
1/8 Spanish
3/8 French (whatever that means, France is such a polyglot)
1/4 Scotch/Irish/English

100% foreign born
100% citizen at birth
100% American

How is this different than the old 4473's? Didn't they also have the question - Hispanic or non-Hispanic?

By the way, when you have your fingerprints taken by L-1 for your CHL, there is the same question. And I always have to ask, "Do you consider yourself Hispanic or non-Hispanic?

Crossfire wrote:How is this different than the old 4473's? Didn't they also have the question - Hispanic or non-Hispanic?

No, there's only one "question 10" on the old forms-
Race (Ethnicity) - Check one or more:
American Indian or Alaskan Native
Hispanic or Latino
Black or African-American
Asian
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander
White

Now you pick ethnicity (you're either hispanic or not), and then race.

Crossfire wrote: By the way, when you have your fingerprints taken by L-1 for your CHL, there is the same question. And I always have to ask, "Do you consider yourself Hispanic or non-Hispanic?

It's interesting, but here's the thing: I keep the 4473's for 20 years. Only time it gets in ATF's hands is with inspection or a search warrant.

Again: Why was this change so important that the forms had to be altered (at non-trivial taxpayer expense)? We know they wanted to alter question 12 and the residency requirements for nonimmigrant visas, but tossing in the ethnicity divider is rather suspect. Why is hispanic ethnicity important and no other? This data isn't collected for statistical reasons, so why the change?

I don't know why the change, other than for more finite identification. It is on the L-1 fingerprint data input screen, and it was on the inked fingerprint cards that we did before we were tied to L-1. That is probably why I thought it was already on the 4473.

OldCannon wrote:No, there's only one "question 10" on the old forms-
Race (Ethnicity) - Check one or more:
American Indian or Alaskan Native
Hispanic or Latino
Black or African-American
Asian
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander
White

Now you pick ethnicity (you're either hispanic or not), and then race.

A lot of government / business forms and questionnaires have been altered to make this distinction. Hispanic / Latino is not a race, it's an ethnicity. You can be a white latino (Spanish-ancestry Mexican), a black latino (African-ancestry Dominican), etc.

Sociologists (or bureaucrats) have started splitting hairs on race (which generally refers to physical appearance e.g. skin color, eye color, facial structure, etc.) and ethnicity (which relates to nationality, culture, language, ancestry, etc.).

They were trying to gather the same data before, but the new way is more accurate to the definition of the terms.

fickman wrote: They were trying to gather the same data before, but the new way is more accurate to the definition of the terms.

Sure, but here's the thing:
1) It's illegal to make a false statement on a 4473.
2) The 4473 offers no guidelines on whether you should check "hispanic" or not
3) The 4473 is not used by the federal government , and is permanently retained by the FFL. NO DATA IS GATHERED. Repeat: NO DATA IS _GATHERED_.

Therefore, anybody can check "Hispanic" ("hey, I like enchiladas as much as the next guy") and not violate any laws or published guidelines, thus leaving the onus on the federal govt to prove otherwise.

It is a pointless, bureaucratic change at best, and offensive at worst.

OldCannon wrote:It is a pointless, bureaucratic change at best, and offensive at worst.

Most bureaucratic changes are pointless. So what else is new?
I refuse to waste the energy to be offended.

Kythas wrote:
I never know what to put.

I'm 1/4 Irish, 1/4 Polish, 1/4 Italian, and 1/4 Korean.

Does that make me Asian? But I'm only 1/4 Asian, so am I White?

Why can't I just be American?

The Annoyed Man wrote:I am:

1/32 Javanese
7/32 Norwegian
1/8 Spanish
3/8 French (whatever that means, France is such a polyglot)
1/4 Scotch/Irish/English

100% foreign born
100% citizen at birth
100% American

Question 10b "Race" says check one or more boxes...just check them all!!

Redundant post.

A former boss of mine was from Lebanon, or some other country in the Middle East.
When he came to the US to attend college he had to check one of the ethnicity boxes.
He checked "Asian" and was questioned by the administrator.

Well, he wasn't of African, Hispanic, or European origin, so "Asian" was the closest fit!

Asia stretches from the Mediterranean Sea to the Sea of Japan. You don't apparently
need to have Oriental features to be an Asian. :-)

SIA