TexasCHLforum.com

http://www.politico.com/politico44/2012 ... 24823.html

Ok, he didn't say that exactly, but that's a logical conclusion that can be drawn from his remarks, since he wants to prohibit states from disallowing voters who can't prove they are US citizens. The real issue for Holder is that voter fraud primarily benefits Democrats, but that doesn't sound as good as a "sacred right to vote." And really, if a right is "sacred" how can it be denied to felons and illegal aliens?

This topic seems to have been beat to death, so here's to beating the horse some more. This article and your reaction to it are a good example of people reading into something just what they want to hear. "Illegal" is not found anywhere in the article. Illegals do not have a right to vote, and they should not vote. If they vote, they are committing a felony, and they are criminals, but then they were committing criminal acts when they entered the nation illegally, anyway. Criminals should be tried and if found guilty, punished appropriately. That is not the issue here. Not at all. Photo ID is the issue, and how to get it. All you fine 30 somethings can get a drivers license in an afternoon. Even less time if you live in town. For those who don't live near a DPS office, it can take longer. Less than half of all Texas counties have a single DPS office, and of those that we have, many are open only one or two days a week and none of them on a weekend. You might have to drive 3 counties away to get a drivers license or ID card. The ID card is issued without charge now, but there is still a cost. You have to get there, and at $3.50 a gallon, three counties each way can cost a few bucks. But you also have to have other identification available to even get the ID card, and things like passports cost a Franklin these days. This is nothing more than a trick to reinstate a poll tax, to prevent citizens who by any standard are eligible to vote, and that has been illegal since 1964. It discriminates against whole classes of Americans: elderly, visually handicapped, physically handicapped,geographically isolated, etc. I'm all for finding a way to prevent illegal aliens from voting, but starting a topic and entitling it as it was is disingenuous and points to a shallowness of understanding of what is otherwise a complex problem.

Illegals can counterfeit a social security card faster than I can type this note. And they weren't intended to be used for ID anyway--if you have an old one, it says so, right there on the card. If they want everyone to have a photo ID, the state is going to have to make it easy to get it, and free to the recipient. They may have to go to senior living centers, park a van there for a day, and wheel people out to it to get their picture taken, and they will have to be liberal in what they call identification to get the picture ID. You pay for a drivers license because driving is a privilege, not a right. Voting is a right. If I show up to vote and I have a copy of my birth certificate showing that I was born in the USA, that ought to be good enough. If I show up and someone can show that I was born in Queretaro, and am not a citizen naturalized to the USA, then an agent should haul me off and prosecute me. But If my great grandson has driven me to the poll and I hobble in with a walker to vote, the first numbnut who tells me that I can not exercise my constitutional right to vote is going to get that walker wrapped around his neck!

gdanaher does raise a couple of valid questions; however, I believe every county has a courthouse and/or a Sheriff who could issue a photo ID.

That said, elections are not held every day nor are they held every year. I fail to see where a photo ID voting requirment can be likened to a 'poll tax' because sometime between elections, everyone who needs one can obtain a legit photo ID - one way or another.

Oldgringo wrote:gdanaher does raise a couple of valid questions; however, I believe every county has a courthouse and/or a Sheriff who could issue a photo ID.

Under whose authority can a county sheriff or other LEO issue a photo ID? Really, I'm not aware of any. The Texas law as I understand it has a defined list of acceptable IDs, and if your ID isn't on the list, it isn't valid to vote with.

Oldgringo wrote:That said, elections are not held every day nor are they held every year. I fail to see where a photo ID voting requirment can be likened to a 'poll tax' because sometime between elections, everyone who needs one can obtain a legit photo ID - one way or another.

Actually, municipal and other local elections occur with great frequency. Voting is a right, not a privilege. As such, it isn't supposed to cost you anything out of pocket to vote. Get to the polling location and vote. To get a free state photo ID you have to produce other identification, preferably other photo ID like a passport, These things cost money. If you don't have a hundred bucks to get a passport, you can't vote. If you can't get the certified birth certificate you need, you have to buy it and if you can't easily find the money for it, you can't vote. Never mind that you might have a year to collect the information. It costs, and that cost infringes on your right to vote. If one eligible citizen is disenfranchised, we are ALL disenfranchised.

FWIW, The county in which I was born gets $21 for a copy of the birth certificate, it must be mailed in, not via the net, and it takes a minimum of 5 weeks to deliver it.......

gdanaher wrote:

Oldgringo wrote:gdanaher does raise a couple of valid questions; however, I believe every county has a courthouse and/or a Sheriff who could issue a photo ID.

Under whose authority can a county sheriff or other LEO issue a photo ID? Really, I'm not aware of any. The Texas law as I understand it has a defined list of acceptable IDs, and if your ID isn't on the list, it isn't valid to vote with.

Oldgringo wrote:That said, elections are not held every day nor are they held every year. I fail to see where a photo ID voting requirment can be likened to a 'poll tax' because sometime between elections, everyone who needs one can obtain a legit photo ID - one way or another.

Actually, municipal and other local elections occur with great frequency. Voting is a right, not a privilege. As such, it isn't supposed to cost you anything out of pocket to vote. Get to the polling location and vote. To get a free state photo ID you have to produce other identification, preferably other photo ID like a passport, These things cost money. If you don't have a hundred bucks to get a passport, you can't vote. If you can't get the certified birth certificate you need, you have to buy it and if you can't easily find the money for it, you can't vote. Never mind that you might have a year to collect the information. It costs, and that cost infringes on your right to vote. If one eligible citizen is disenfranchised, we are ALL disenfranchised.

Nevermind....

gdanaher wrote:All you fine 30 somethings can get a drivers license in an afternoon. Even less time if you live in town. For those who don't live near a DPS office, it can take longer. Less than half of all Texas counties have a single DPS office, and of those that we have, many are open only one or two days a week and none of them on a weekend.

With all due respect, I'm not 30, I'm a few months shy of 60......and the DPS will MAIL you the ID if you'll take the one day out of the next 180 between now and November to go get it taken care of. You don't have to go pick it up. Now, before you object, I'd be willing to bet that DPS has already put procedures into place to assist people who can't just up and drive there any time they want to.

Consider the amount of time between elections. The next one isn't until November—6 months from now. The next one after that is a couple of years later. Surely a person who lived in such a removed location could find the time on one day out of 180 days to drive to the nearest DPS office and get it handled?

Simplistic rhetoric is not the answer....you're right about that......but neither are dismissive answers which automatically do away with any means of preserving the electoral process. Several things ARE undeniable:

1. The electoral process IS compromised. The state of Florida uncovered something like 22,000 (!) DEAD voters just a week or two ago. South Dakota and New Mexico are famous for dead people voting. Ditto NYC and Chicago. And I don't know where you get your facts, but illegals DO vote. I once actually had an illegal alien tell me he voted and laughed about it because we're so stupid. How can that be, you say? Because wherever we have motor-voter laws, anyone applying for a driver's license can also register to vote. That's how he got registered.....so don't tell me illegals don't vote. They maybe don't all vote, but some do vote, and that's a fact; it pollutes the electoral process, and that too is a fact.

2. Anywone who denies that voter fraud is a problem is either A) in denial, or B) perfectly OK with voter fraud. Neither (A) nor (B) is acceptable. The person in denial is not in possession of his or her faculties and should not vote themselves since they're not responsible for making an informed decision. The person for whom fraud is acceptable is a person of low character. I would like to think that the members of this board fit niether description.

3. Voter ID would solve this problem....for the most part. You're always going to have ID theft, but it's not like credit card theft where a thief in New York can use a credit card number stolen from a resident of Texas. A Texas voter ID will be usable only in Texas. In fact, it would be very easy to simply place an indexing mark on a TDL stating that the person is qualified to vote (or not), just like our CHLs are marked SA or NSA for "semi-automatic" and "no semi-automatic." A TDL (or state issued ID card) could be marked with a "V" or "NV" indicating whether the bearer may "Vote" or "No Vote." Registration can be handled by mail and doesn't require a trip from you. It would be very easy for DPS to provide the election board with a numerically sorted electronic list of TDL numbers bearing a "V." When a registration application arrives in the mail for processing, the clerk simply puts in the provided TDL/ID Card number and the compooter-machine tells the clerk right then and there if this person may register to vote or not. If they cannot, then their application is forwarded to the DPS and an arrest warrant is issued against that person for voter fraud. See that? 5 minutes, and I came up with a way to fix the system. This is NOT rocket science.

4. So, while I don't want to reduce the argument to simplistic sound bites, you have to ask yourself the following questions: Am I in denial? Are these facts about document massive voter fraud just made up out of whole cloth and if I cover my ears and shout nanny nanny nanny they'll go away? Is the electoral process worth preserving? And here's the BIG question: "If I agree that the system needs to be repaired so that unqualified people don't vote, and I don't want to see voter ID because it is inconvenient, then what ideas do I have that will fix the system and still meet my needs?" If you can't answer that last question with a good idea, then you're perfectly OK with a broken system, and that makes you part of the problem.

So, are you going to be part of fixing it, or are you going to kick your responsibilities as a citizen for preserving the process down the road for next generations to handle........when it might be too late because Texas is no longer part of the U.S. and belongs to Mexico again? If it is a matter of physical disability, then isn't somebody already helping you with these kinds of needs?

I truly don't mean to be flip and disrespectful, but I'm just not going to let arguments against voter ID stand without being challenged, if and unless I hear such a person offer and alternative solution........because solutions are called for, not just vetoes. Just sayin'.....

Whats the problem...you should be able to walk in, give your a name, and vote.....

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gdanaher wrote:If one eligible citizen is disenfranchised, we are ALL disenfranchised.[/b]

Boy, and from someone who objected to simplistic answers? Please! I could just as easily counter that when one ineligble person votes, all eligible voters are disenfranchised because the value and meaning of their vote is diluted.......and that argument would be just as valid.

This is so typical........ there's a problem, someone proposes a solution to the problem, those with a vested interest in a broken system that permits the unqualified to vote object but offer no alternative solutions.........except to allow the system to continue to be corrupted.

Why is that? It is tempting to think that those who object prefer the outcomes produced by voter fraud than the outcomes produced by cleanly contested elections. If that is not the case, then please offer an alternative that will fix the problem. "If one eligible citzen is disenfranchised, we are ALL disenfranchised" is, with all due respect, pabulum.........because I don't feel disenfranchised at all by the thought of it, and that is my determination to make, not yours. Unqualified people DO vote. It is a fact. You can't deny it and be known as a rational person. I believe you to be rational, therefore, what do you propose? "It ain't broke" is not an answer.

gdanaher wrote:This topic seems to have been beat to death, so here's to beating the horse some more. This article and your reaction to it are a good example of people reading into something just what they want to hear. "Illegal" is not found anywhere in the article. Illegals do not have a right to vote, and they should not vote. If they vote, they are committing a felony, and they are criminals, but then they were committing criminal acts when they entered the nation illegally, anyway. Criminals should be tried and if found guilty, punished appropriately. That is not the issue here. Not at all. Photo ID is the issue, and how to get it. All you fine 30 somethings can get a drivers license in an afternoon. Even less time if you live in town. For those who don't live near a DPS office, it can take longer. Less than half of all Texas counties have a single DPS office, and of those that we have, many are open only one or two days a week and none of them on a weekend. You might have to drive 3 counties away to get a drivers license or ID card. The ID card is issued without charge now, but there is still a cost. You have to get there, and at $3.50 a gallon, three counties each way can cost a few bucks. But you also have to have other identification available to even get the ID card, and things like passports cost a Franklin these days. This is nothing more than a trick to reinstate a poll tax, to prevent citizens who by any standard are eligible to vote, and that has been illegal since 1964. It discriminates against whole classes of Americans: elderly, visually handicapped, physically handicapped,geographically isolated, etc. I'm all for finding a way to prevent illegal aliens from voting, but starting a topic and entitling it as it was is disingenuous and points to a shallowness of understanding of what is otherwise a complex problem.

I think TAM pretty much laid it out but I will make a couple of comments. First, what a load of hooey....just what "right" enumerated by the Constitution doesn't cost money or effort to exercise? We have the right to keep and bear arms...should people get "free" guns to protect themselves? Or should it just be those who can't afford a gun or can't get to a gun store who get a freebie? People have the basic right to life, should they all get free food and medical care? Why not? And it seems to me that if someone chooses to live somewhere that makes getting ID inconvenient, that's their choice and their problem. It's discrimination now that exercising a right isn't free, easy, or effortless? Then I'm being discriminated against because I don't have an equal right to free speech....people with more money and better access to national media get their voices heard when I don't. Perhaps your view can be summarized by: from each according to his ability, to each according to his need?

I said in my post that Holder didn't actually say illegals have a right to vote, but again, as TAM has aptly pointed out, the logical consequence of not having to provide proof of citizenship is that illegals will vote. If I endorse something that has a known and logical consequence then I also endorse that consequence. But I think it's you who is disingenuous, or naive, if you believe Holder and his boss care one whit about everyone's right to vote --what they care about is power for themselves and others of their camp. Holder in particular has made it clear by his actions that he is in no way concerned about equal protection or enforcement of the law. His supposed concern for voting rights is code for the "right people" voting ...and that isn't people like most of the people on the CHL forum.

Frankly, I think our Founders had it right and there are a lot of people voting who shouldn't be voting...in other words, just like the men who wrote and ratified our Constitution, I don't believe everyone has a right to vote. I don't think a poll tax is a bad thing at all. In the first place, no one who is a net tax consumer should be allowed to vote. The notion that those who produce nothing should be able to vote themselves wealth from those who do is absurd on its face and can only lead in one direction...as it is doing in this country and has in others --the proverbial "Democracy" of two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. It's like letting your kids vote on how much you have to pay them as a weekly allowance. I happen to agree with H.L. Mencken that an election is generally an auction of previously stolen goods. He said it something like 90 years ago....I doubt he could even have imagined how his remark would so accurately describe today's reality.

Finally, the impetus for the universal vote is from the radical left --it's ultimately intended to empower the tax feeders over the productive class until the Marxist tipping point is reached, and one man, one vote, one time, renders a final election and the rule of the proletariat, which, of course, is in reality, a tyranny of political elites.

Edited to add:

And let's not forget another part of the context....the liberals in states like California have actually argued that illegals SHOULD be allowed to vote.

Illegals voting in California:http://www.wikilaw3k.org/forum/Immigrat ... 363067.htm

The Immigrant Voting Project: http://www.immigrantvoting.org/statescu ... n%20F.html

Why Support Proposition F

A supermajority of the San Francisco Board of Supervisors has placed a charter amendment on the November 2004 ballot to allow an immigrant parent with a child in our school system to vote in San Francisco school board elections. Voters should support this simple idea for the following reasons:

Immigrant voting is currently practiced in other cities and countries. Jurisdictions in Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts and New York have passed laws allowing immigrants to vote.

So much for your claim that illegals don't vote. It sure seems to me that you're the one reading what you want to hear into Holder's remarks.

Biometrics Database to document all US Citizens should be the law. Iris Scan and right hand bio-scan to validate who you are. A piece of cake nowadays.

Power corrupts. It really corrupts people who are evil to begin with.

gdanaher wrote:This topic seems to have been beat to death, so here's to beating the horse some more. This article and your reaction to it are a good example of people reading into something just what they want to hear. "Illegal" is not found anywhere in the article. Illegals do not have a right to vote, and they should not vote. If they vote, they are committing a felony, and they are criminals, but then they were committing criminal acts when they entered the nation illegally, anyway. Criminals should be tried and if found guilty, punished appropriately. That is not the issue here. Not at all. Photo ID is the issue, and how to get it. All you fine 30 somethings can get a drivers license in an afternoon. Even less time if you live in town. For those who don't live near a DPS office, it can take longer. Less than half of all Texas counties have a single DPS office, and of those that we have, many are open only one or two days a week and none of them on a weekend. You might have to drive 3 counties away to get a drivers license or ID card. The ID card is issued without charge now, but there is still a cost. You have to get there, and at $3.50 a gallon, three counties each way can cost a few bucks. But you also have to have other identification available to even get the ID card, and things like passports cost a Franklin these days. This is nothing more than a trick to reinstate a poll tax, to prevent citizens who by any standard are eligible to vote, and that has been illegal since 1964. It discriminates against whole classes of Americans: elderly, visually handicapped, physically handicapped,geographically isolated, etc. I'm all for finding a way to prevent illegal aliens from voting, but starting a topic and entitling it as it was is disingenuous and points to a shallowness of understanding of what is otherwise a complex problem.

I say Bull-Pucky... The TxDPS has made MANY... Concessions to allow ppl to get an ID Card and only. "Primary" ID constitutes what you have described. Please see below.

Identification Requirements for a Texas Driver License or Identification Card

NOTE: This page only outlines the identification requirements for receiving a Texas driver license or identification card. You must still meet all other requirements for a driver license or ID card. Additional documents may be required for other requirements.

A driver license is no longer used solely as authorization to drive. The driver license or identification cards are the nationally accepted forms of identification, and both are used daily to establish identity. Therefore, the Department has the responsibility to correctly determine an applicant's identity before issuing a driver license or identification card.

To satisfy the identity verification requirement for a Texas driver license or identification card, every applicant must present either one piece of:

   Primary Identification:
These items are complete within themselves and require no supporting instruments: These documents must contain the applicant's complete name and full date of birth.

Primary Identification
Must include full name, date of birth, and photo

Accepted for identification without additional documentation

Texas driver  license (DL) or identification certificate (ID) with photo and within two years of expiration date

Unexpired United States passport book or passport card

United States Citizenship Certificate or Certificate of Naturalization with identifiable photo (N-560, N-561, N-645, N-550, N-55G, N-570 or N-578)

Unexpired DHS or USCIS document The document must contain verifiable data and identifiable photo. Examples include:

US Citizen Identification Card (I-179 or I-197)
Permanent Resident Card (I-551)
Temporary I-551 (immigrant visa endorsed with adit stamp) and foreign passport
Temporary Resident Identification Card (I-688)
Employment Authorization Card (I-766)
U.S. Travel Document (I-327 or I-571)
Advance Parole Document (I-512 or I-512L)
I-94 stamped Sec. 208 Asylee with photo
I-94 stamped Sec. 207 Refugee with photo
American Indian Card (I-872)
Northern Mariana card (I-873)
Foreign Passport, visa (valid or expired), and Form I-94 with an undefined expiration date (e.g., duration of status).

Foreign Passport, visa (valid or expired) and Form I-94 with a defined expiration date.

Unexpired United States military ID card for active duty, reserve, or retired personnel with identifiable photo.

    Secondary identification
These items are recorded governmental documents (United States, one of the fifty states, a United States territory, District of Columbia, or Canadian province).

Secondary Identification
Recorded governmental documents
(includes full name and date of birth)

An applicant must present either: two secondary documents or one secondary and two supporting documents
to establish identity

Original or certified copy of a birth certificate issued by the appropriate State Bureau of Vital Statistics or equivalent agency from a U.S. state, U.S. territory, the District of Columbia, or a Canadian province. A birth record issued by a hospital is not acceptable under this category.

Original or certified copy of U.S. Dept. of State Certification of Birth Abroad (issued to U. S. citizens born abroad) (Form FS-240, DS-1350, or FS-545)

Original or certified copy of court order with name and date of birth (DOB) indicating an official change of name and/or gender from a U.S. state, U.S. territory, the District of Columbia, or Canadian province.

    Supporting Identification:
These items consist of other records or documents that aid examining personnel in establishing the identity of the applicant. The following items are not all inclusive. The examining or supervisory personnel may determine that an unlisted document meets the department's needs in establishing identity.

Supporting Identification
Additional records and documents that
aid in establishing identity

An applicant must present one secondary and two supporting documents to establish identity

Social Security card (actual card)

Forms W-2 or 1099

Numident record from the Social Security Administration

Temporary receipt for a Texas driver license or ID (actual receipt)

Driver license or ID issued by another U.S. state, U.S. territory, the District of Columbia, or Canadian province (unexpired or within two years of the expiration date) (actual card) *

Expired Texas driver license or ID (expired more than two years) (actual card)

School records* (e.g., report cards, photo ID cards)

Military records (e.g., Form DD-214)

Unexpired U.S. military dependant identification card (actual card)

Original or certified copy of marriage license or divorce decree (U.S. jurisdiction or foreign jurisdiction – if the document is not in English, a certified translation must accompany it)

Voter registration card (actual card)*

Pilot's license (actual card)*

Concealed handgun license (actual card)*

Professional license issued by Texas state agency

ID card issued by government agency*

A valid consular document issued by a state or national government

Texas Inmate ID card or similar form of ID issued by TDCJ

TDCJ parole or mandatory release certificate

Federal inmate identification card

Federal parole or release certificate

Medicare or Medicaid card (actual card)

Selective Service card (actual card)

Immunization records*

Tribal membership card from federally-recognized tribe

Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood

Unexpired foreign passport

Insurance policy (e.g., auto, home, life) (valid continuously for the past two years)

Texas Vehicle title (TRC §521.144)

Current Texas vehicle registration

Current Texas boat registration or title

Veteran’s Administration card (actual card)

Hospital issued birth record*

*This document must be issued by an institution, entity, or government from a U.S. state, U.S. territory, the District of Columbia, or Canadian province.

Supervisory personnel may determine that an unlisted document meets the Department’s needs in establishing identity in the “supporting” category only. You must visit your local driver license office if you have questions regarding acceptable documents.

All documents must be verifiable by the source that issued the document. Additional documentation may be required by driver license personnel to verify conflicting information, incomplete names, and date of birth.


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Good job, Medic624!

There is no viable reason to object to conclusive voter identification....for a legitimate voter. In the immortal words of the late, great Pearl Bailley, "...either you is, or you ain't...."

The current POTUS and Eric Holder, et al, may take exception, but that's the way the Oldgringo sees it. Where the aforementioned come from, they may not wanna' know who's votin'?

{Let's hear it from forum members who are uh, er...uh sufficiently mature to know of Pearl Bailly. Anybody...?}