Gun Seizure

[Commander]

Dallas Morning News had an article today about an arrest of a credit card hacker in Miami Beach. FL. The article mentioned that in 2008, federal agents seized two computers, $22,000 in cash and a 9mm Glock from the suspect. It puzzles me somewhat that this was a computer crime, yet they seized a gun from the suspect. I've seen other such reports, where during the course of an arrest, police seize a gun or a number of guns from someone's house even though the arrest is not related to a gun crime. Is it standard procedure to seize any and all guns found in a residence regardless of the circumstance of the arrest? What legal justification is there?

[joe817]

Maybe guns were also listed, along with computers and equipment, in the Federal Search Warrant? That doesn't bother me at all.

[seamusTX]

Some states have laws authorizing or requiring the seizure of weapons in some cases, usually domestic violence. Other than that, the rationalization is "because we can."

I just read in another forum about a guy in North Carolina who had some kind of medical episode and surrendered his carry piece to a cop. When he got out of the hospital and went to retrieve the weapon, the cops told him that he had to wait until they performed ballistic testing to see if it had been used in a crime, and BTW, "don't hold your breath."

- Jim

[seamusTX]

Maybe guns were also listed, along with computers and equipment, in the Federal Search Warrant? That doesn't bother me at all.

You might want to think about that.

Possessing a firearm in the commission of a crime is an aggravating factor in many cases. We can agree that that makes sense in the case of violent crimes. However, there is no way that a computer hacker can use a weapon to make his crimes more serious. That same goes for people who possess drugs and weapons. Why is it worse to grow a pot plant in your attic when you happen to own guns, as opposed to not owning guns?

On a related note, I have pointed out in several threads on this forum how having a four-figure or more amount of cash is de-facto criminalized. The cops can seize it, and it costs more to get it back than the value of what they seized.

Can you imagine how Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, or Alexander Hamilton would react if you told them that one day it would be illegal to posses a weapon, opium, or a handful of gold coins?

- Jim

[joe817]

Can you imagine how Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, or Alexander Hamilton would react if you told them that one day it would be illegal to posses a weapon, opium, or a handful of gold coins?

I imagine they'd be turning over in their grave. I know I would be, as all 3 were generally accepted as societal norms of the period. Of those 3, only opium is now illegal. Gold coins are not illegal to own. Quite the contrary, they are widely held as an edge to inflation, or hard times in general. That is an investment vehicle, commonly traded daily on futures exchanges. And as you and I well know, guns are not illegal, except in the backwards states, mainly Illinois.

As far as the story goes, I don't know what I don't know. Neither do you, and I say that with all due respects. Who knows if this was not a common, high school hacker? Perhaps he was a cyber terrorist, out to do harm. The what if's and perhaps are endless. I'd love to read the original story, and read the follow ups on it.

But I do appreciate your opinion.

[Commander]

Here's a link to the article I read this morning:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... f63e4.html

If a gun can be seized because it "might" have been used as a weapon in a crime - I guess the seizure of knives of any type might be next.

[seamusTX]

Guns per se are not illegal to own in most places in the U.S., but they are illegal to possess in many locations.

Owning gold is not illegal, but if the police can make any kind of case that it is the proceeds of a drug deal, they will seize it. They seize cars and expensive watches and jewelry all the time, sometimes entire houses or businesses.

- Jim

[joe817]

So THAT'S the guy that was all in the headlines last week! Thanks for posting Commander!

He sure was no common ordinary hacker. "Last week, Gonzalez, 28, was indicted in New Jersey on more federal charges. He's accused of the biggest credit card hacks of the decade, totaling 170 million accounts."

"Industry analysts marveled at the scope of the operation, which Gonzalez allegedly dubbed "Get Rich or Die Tryin'." One compared it to a hackers' version of the 1980s gangster movie Scarface.

""Albert Gonzalez is definitely the Tony Montana of credit card theft," said Sean Arries, a computer security expert at Internet technology company Terremark in Miami."

[joe817]

Guns per se are not illegal to own in most places in the U.S., but they are illegal to possess in many locations.
Owning gold is not illegal, but if the police can make any kind of case that it is the proceeds of a drug deal, they will seize it. They seize cars and expensive watches and jewelry all the time, sometimes entire houses or businesses.
- Jim

Very true. And I don't have a problem with the LEO's seizing all of that stuff either, when crime enterprises are involved.

[seamusTX]

The problem is, quite often, the police seize money and other assets without the "accused" ever being found guilty of a crime.

- Jim

[Rex B]

I'm with Jim on that one.
There was a single mother in the Northwest - Seattle? - that thought her teenage son was smoking pot. She asked the police to search the kid's bedroom while he was at school. they found a small qty of pot. Apparently it was enough that they could assume the kid was a dealer. They ended up taking the woman's home and putting the two of them on the street. That's a real travesty.

[WildBill]

The problem is, quite often, the police seize money and other assets without the "accused" ever being found guilty of a crime. - Jim

"First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me."

[seamusTX]

Here's an article from Reason magazine (a libertarian publication): http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _14171968/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In this case, a wealthy family was the target of a police raid in which the husband was killed. The police were looking for drugs. Among the "evidence" that police claimed was the fact that the wife had been seen with $100 bills.

No drugs were found. No law enforcement personnel were prosecuted or disciplined as far as I know.

This was the first of a quarter-million links in a Google search for "asset forfeiture abuse": http://www.google.com/search?q=asset+forfeiture+abuse" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- Jim

[Liberty]

Here's an article from Reason magazine (a libertarian publication): http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _14171968/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In this case, a wealthy family was the target of a police raid in which the husband was killed. The police were looking for drugs. Among the "evidence" that police claimed was the fact that the wife had been seen with $100 bills.

No drugs were found. No law enforcement personnel were prosecuted or disciplined as far as I know.

This was the first of a quarter-million links in a Google search for "asset forfeiture abuse": http://www.google.com/search?q=asset+forfeiture+abuse" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- Jim

What encourages some of these agencies is that they are often allowed to keep the money themselves instead of the money going into a general fund. These moneys are often used to buy toys like boats armered vehicles and such.


r as

[Wrightwing]

Just like every other "Grand Government Plan" to solve the problem. "Asset Forfeiture" was intended for Bernie Madoff, but is most often used against John Doe.